5
   

Why does God permit suffering?

 
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 09:41 am
It is the result of sin. Adam chose it. And so do we.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 09:46 am
neologist wrote:
Sin is a matter of choice. (Though sometimes a Hobson's choice)

Whose choice is it that we suffer?


The usual reply is that the suffering we face is the result of our own sins, but I take such speakers of truth to the Pediatric Ward at Sloan-Kettering and show them the Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia patients, some as young as six weeks and ask;

what sins in what life?

[quote]Some common symptoms include: fever, chills, weakness and fatigue, swollen or tender lymph nodes, liver or spleen, easy bleeding or bruising, swollen or bleeding gums, night sweats, and bone / joint pain. In acute leukemia, the abnormal cells can accumulate in the brain or spinal cord, causing headaches, vomiting, confusion, or seizures[/quote].U of Penn Oncolink


Joe(just and loving)Nation
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 09:57 am
real life wrote:
It is the result of sin. Adam chose it. And so do we.
You're in a hole here, real. Why does God not end it?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 09:59 am
Joe Nation wrote:
neologist wrote:
Sin is a matter of choice. (Though sometimes a Hobson's choice)

Whose choice is it that we suffer?


The usual reply is that the suffering we face is the result of our own sins, but I take such speakers of truth to the Pediatric Ward at Sloan-Kettering and show them the Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia patients, some as young as six weeks and ask;

what sins in what life?

[quote]Some common symptoms include: fever, chills, weakness and fatigue, swollen or tender lymph nodes, liver or spleen, easy bleeding or bruising, swollen or bleeding gums, night sweats, and bone / joint pain. In acute leukemia, the abnormal cells can accumulate in the brain or spinal cord, causing headaches, vomiting, confusion, or seizures
.[/i]U of Penn Oncolink


Joe(just and loving)Nation[/quote]Yeah, but Joe.

The question was why does not God put an end to it?

He supposedly promised to do so.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:09 am
neologist wrote:
real life wrote:
It is the result of sin. Adam chose it. And so do we.
You're in a hole here, real. Why does God not end it?


No hole here at all Neo.

Just because God 'can' do something, it does not follow that He 'must' do it.

Why does God not force all to believe?

Once they believe why does God not force all to obey?

None of these require that God therefore has given us permission to disbelieve or to disobey. He has not. He has commanded all men to believe and to obey.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:16 am
The question 'Why does God.....?' assumes that we have the ability to understand the answer if it were given to us, or even recognize that it has been given.

Even if God gave the answer to all of our whys , we may not have the ability to know that the answer is there, much less understand it.

There are many aspects of the physical universe that exist all around us that we do not have the ability to perceive. This can be true of other dimensions of the universe, such as the spiritual.

We cannot perceive the existence of angels, nor what they do or say. Likewise, God is speaking to us and we do not always perceive it. Even when we perceive it, we may not understand.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:18 am
God will never end the suffering, that's the game.



I guess when the sadistic bastard son of a bitch omnipotent godhead gets enough of his jollies off. That's when the game ends. All get swept up into heaven except for the poor rubes like me. We get hellfire forever. and that's a long long time.

Yeah, yeah, I know : we can't judge God. Says them that believes, I say if he's in the game he has to play by the rules, but He doesn't. Believers are just as likely to get beaned on the head by a falling tree as me. You can bet there were plenty of believers pounding on their attic ceilings as the water rose to their necks, but you asked when does it stop?

Never. And it's not God's fault because He doesn't exist. It's just Nature doing what comes naturally. Species come and species go. Some painfully.

Ten thousand, thousand years from now, a couple of descendants of some 23rd Century astronauts will re-arrive on earth from some distant star and ask the sentient Butterflies "Whatever happened to the species of Humans." and the butterflies will answer "Who?"
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:21 am
You forgot. Here ya go...

Joe (indignant atheist) Nation
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:23 am
ha.

Joe(I'm the butterfly on the left)Nation
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:23 am
snood wrote:
You forgot. Here ya go...

Joe (indignant atheist) Nation


Should be Joe (delusional atheist) Nation, because he's mad at someone that he claims doesn't exist.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:28 am
real life wrote:
neologist wrote:
real life wrote:
It is the result of sin. Adam chose it. And so do we.
You're in a hole here, real. Why does God not end it?


No hole here at all Neo.

Just because God 'can' do something, it does not follow that He 'must' do it.

Why does God not force all to believe?

Once they believe why does God not force all to obey?

None of these require that God therefore has given us permission to disbelieve or to disobey. He has not. He has commanded all men to believe and to obey.
But God has promised that he will do it.

neo, in the initial post wrote:
Isaiah refers to God's ability to complete everything he starts:
"For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it." (Isaiah 55:10-11)


Additionally:

"At that time even spoil in abundance will have to be divided up; the lame ones themselves will actually take a big plunder. 24 And no resident will say: "I am sick." The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error." (Isaiah 33: 23,24)
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:32 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Chumly,

Why is it that so many will believe the parts in the Bible where it appears God is the bad guy but when told of the parts in the Bible where it shows Him loving, etc., those are not accepted?

Curious that.


Let's rephrase and see if it had the same relative merit:

Why is it that so many will believe the parts in the Bible where it appears God is the good guy but when told of the parts in the Bible where it shows Him doing harm, etc., those are not accepted?

Curious that.

Note the term "relative merit" as I am not arguing any real merit in either case.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:36 am
Joe Nation wrote:
God will never end the suffering, that's the game.
. . .

blah and blah

. . .

Never. And it's not God's fault because He doesn't exist. It's just Nature doing what comes naturally. Species come and species go. Some painfully.
. . .

more blah.
It's natural to disbelieve because you see suffering.

I ask why doesn't God end suffering. Real life says his god neither permits suffering nor intends for it to end. I don't believe in that god either.

I ask why doesn't God end suffering. You say because there is no God.

I say there is an answer you are both overlooking.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:43 am
Stay tuned. News at eleven.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:45 am
Chumly wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Chumly,

Why is it that so many will believe the parts in the Bible where it appears God is the bad guy but when told of the parts in the Bible where it shows Him loving, etc., those are not accepted?

Curious that.


Let's rephrase and see if it had the same relative merit:

Why is it that so many will believe the parts in the Bible where it appears God is the good guy but when told of the parts in the Bible where it shows Him doing harm, etc., those are not accepted?

Curious that.

Note the term "relative merit" as I am not arguing any real merit in either case.
Mornin', Chumly. The entire bible was inspired by God. So all the things you read about the destruction of the Canaanites and the plagues on Egypt are true - and have relevance.

The question was why does God permit these things?

Real life says that his god does not permit suffering; we must choose it.
Joe and Pauli say that the existence of suffering proves God does not exist.
You apparently say that if there is a God, he must be impotent.
MA says God can do whatever he wants but doesn't say why we still suffer.
Snood hasn't really answered yet.

If I missed anyone, I'm sorry.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:47 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Chumly,

If you will accept the statements in the Bible where God killed or was "being the bad guy" why will you not accept the parts of the Bible that say that God IS all knowing and all powerful and not in the least bit weak or ignorant?
I made no reference to accepting your interpretation of your bible I simple sated that: "for the sake of this argument I will entertain the notion that he exists" This does not mean I must accept your interpretation of your version of the bible, does it?

Nor did I say that I accept the bible in fact in any part per se. My reference to god and murder was not an implicit acceptance of any part of your interpretation of your bible. I mentioned murder as a counter to real life when he wrote: "Just because God can do 'x' , does it follow that He must do 'x' ? " and I said "Are you willing to argue that the murdering of over 6 million Jews was somehow for mans' benefit?"

Where is the implicit acceptance, I ask?

Again you are the one who believes in the bible, I simply said "for the sake of this argument I will entertain the notion that he exists" therefore I should be the one asking you if you believe god is all powerful and all knowing and as such "are you willing to argue that the murdering of over 6 million Jews was somehow for mans' benefit?"
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:53 am
Chumly wrote:
. . .blah and blah . .

are you willing to argue that the murdering of over 6 million Jews was somehow for mans' benefit?
No, but it was permitted for some reason..

WHY?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 10:57 am
I'm sorry. Did I sound angry at God? Because I'm not. Something has to exist to face my wrath and disappointment.

You can't be pissed off at Nature. And you can't expect miracles or bargain with it either. It just is. Life -good, bad and indifferent- isn't controlled by anything other than the forces driving it forward. There will be no end of suffering in this world because suffering is part of life. It's not the wages of sin, or that put on the heads of man by the Father, it's just life. Bargain all you want with the Holy One, suffering will continue.

I do get a little short with people who have easy answers -Godswill- (It's godswill that the baby dies covered with painful sores. Yeah, that's makes it okay.) and who ignore chances to make this a better place because of their awe of an imaginary creature and that creature's servants, (oh, mustn't try that stem cell voodoo,) but I can't stay angry with them long. They are human afterall.

I'm not the one to answer "Why does God not end the suffering?" Snood, you're up. Real Life's 'just because He could doesn't mean he must' is one of those preacher answers. Pat, but of little depth. So, if He can end suffering which I'm sure an all-powerful being could, why the heck wouldn't he? No, really, what's he get out of all the suffering, love?

Joe(If you say anything like 'mysterious ways' then I'll get angry)Nation

Joe(I love humans, they are so natural)Nation
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 11:02 am
neologist wrote:
Real life says his god (never) intends for it to end.


Didn't say this. That was Joe.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Mar, 2006 11:02 am
There is an answer, Joe. And its not God's will or anything mysterious. I'll be back tonight. See ya!
0 Replies
 
 

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