5
   

Why does God permit suffering?

 
 
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 03:30 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
I think how individuals choose to view their particular God says more about the individual than the God. Because it IS a choice.
If someone had presented me the God that you present , and said, 'Here- believe in this,' I'd have had to say, 'Nope, sorry, can't do it.'

Thank you. And after 20 years, that's exactly what I did.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 04:19 pm
It didn't take me 20 years to learn that the bible god never existed. There were too many conflicting issues that were supposedly the teachings from the bible, and that was when I was in grade school. On a more practical level, I saw "our" church claim it's the "only" true church, and that made me wonder even more why that could be true. This was long before we learned about the scientific realities about a) the life of earth, and b) the great flood. All those miracles in the bible just sounded more like myth than reality to me, and I was never a good student in grade school. Besides all that, my childhood was pretty screwed up because of my stepfather and no support from our mother. All my siblings are still devout christians to this day.
0 Replies
 
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 08:39 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Quote:
On the eve of Christmas
hatred will vanish
the earth will flourish
war will be gone
and love will be born.

When one offers a glass of water to a thirsty person
It is Christmas
When we clothe a naked person with a gown of love
It is Christmas
When we wipe the tears from weeping eyes
It is Christmas

When the spirit of revenge dies within me
It is Christmas
When in my heart I no longer want to stay apart
It is Christmas
When I am buried in the being of God (which is love)
It is Christmas

Okay - now substitute God for Christmas. And then in your mind - substitute Love for God.

That's the God I believe in which informs who I am, how I act and what I believe.
You may say - I don't need God to believe in love. And maybe some people don't. Or maybe they just don't call it God - maybe they think it just

sprang from their own hearts and minds unbidden.
I think the best part of me was informed by love - I call that God - and I think if we all worshipped 'love toward one's neighbor' - we wouldn't have

to wonder or worry about where events we don't understand come from - we'd know.

And I'm not worried at all about what comes after this life. I just worry about what I'm supposed to be and do now.

Honestly, if that is the view of God I had been indoctrinated with, I might still be a believer. But alas, the God I was presented with was an

insecure, schizophrenic God who held eternal love and the promise of heaven in one hand, and the threat of eternal hellfire in the other. A God who

created flawed beings, and then blamed them for their flaws. A god who created a world full of misery, pain, sorrow and death, and then blamed it

on his creations. A God who demands constant adoration from vastly inferior beings, and can be hurt by their actions. A God who makes himself

increasingly obscure and difficult to find, but expects every human being on earth to just find him by default, or suffer the consequences.
I'm sorry, but I can't love and worship this God. Not even if he burns me alive for all eternity.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 09:43 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Steve 41oo wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

God didn't create me; my parents did. You know, they had sex.
Surely not! Sex wasn't invented until the 1960's! Smile

Good to see you still banging sense into these people ci
EEEW!

These people!!

Yuuuk!!

Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 09:48 pm
@rydinearth,
rydinearth wrote:

Honestly, if that is the view of God I had been indoctrinated with, I might still be a believer. But alas, the God I was presented with was an

insecure, schizophrenic God who held eternal love and the promise of heaven in one hand, and the threat of eternal hellfire in the other. A God who

created flawed beings, and then blamed them for their flaws. A god who created a world full of misery, pain, sorrow and death, and then blamed it

on his creations. A God who demands constant adoration from vastly inferior beings, and can be hurt by their actions. A God who makes himself

increasingly obscure and difficult to find, but expects every human being on earth to just find him by default, or suffer the consequences.
I'm sorry, but I can't love and worship this God. Not even if he burns me alive for all eternity.
Not the God I worship either.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 10:08 pm
God does not "permit suffering" it's a test of faith.
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 04:12 am
@rydinearth,
Quote:

Honestly, if that is the view of God I had been indoctrinated with, I might still be a believer. But alas, the God I was presented with was an

insecure, schizophrenic God who held eternal love and the promise of heaven in one hand, and the threat of eternal hellfire in the other. A God who

created flawed beings, and then blamed them for their flaws. A god who created a world full of misery, pain, sorrow and death, and then blamed it

on his creations. A God who demands constant adoration from vastly inferior beings, and can be hurt by their actions. A God who makes himself

increasingly obscure and difficult to find, but expects every human being on earth to just find him by default, or suffer the consequences.
I'm sorry, but I can't love and worship this God. Not even if he burns me alive for all eternity.


I think the word' indoctrinated' is key, for me anyway. I think some people are easily indoctrinated and others aren't-just as some are easily hypnotized, and others aren't.

I'm not easily indoctrinated. If I KNOW that something's wrong, no one can convince me it's right. My mother calls it being 'stubborn as a mule'.

It seems that you aren't easily indoctrinated either. You knew this was wrong and you rejected it (thank GOD- it'd be horrible if more people accepted this very narrow and crazy view of God).
Because, not everyone does. It's only that the ones who do are so loudmouthed and make themselves so vituperatively visible.

The reason I could never adopt it - is not only because I know or feel it's wrong and I can't pretend I believe it's right or true- but also because I know or feel what's right (for me) and I can't deny that.

I guess everyone has to figure out what's right for them. For some people that's nothing (when it comes to a god belief) for other people it's something else.
0 Replies
 
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:20 am
@Chumly,
Quote:
God does not "permit suffering" it's a test of faith.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what the HELL does that even mean? There are so many things wrong with this tiny sentence, I don't even know where to begin.
For one thing, you start by saying God doesn't permit suffering, and finish by saying that God permits suffering as a "test of faith", all without drawing an intervening breath.
And why exactly would an omniscient God need to "test" us to see if we have faith? He/she should already know who has faith, who doesn't, and to what extent, without having to put his "beloved" creatures through needless suffering.
And then there's the whole matter of "faith" itself. Why is it that this God is so obsessed with it? Where exactly is the great inherent virtue in believing things without any evidence, or even in the face of evidence to the contrary. I would think a truly enlightened God would be more respectful of beings who believe things based on honest analysis of the facts. And besides that, how can you force yourself to believe something you don't believe? If I told you that you HAVE to believe that there are little pink unicorns in your basement, I venture you couldn't believe it no matter how hard or how long you tried. Because it's just silly.
And why does this God need that we believe in him in the first place. Is this all powerful, self sufficient being so insecure that he needs the praise and belief of vastly inferior beings? If he truly exists, his existence should be self evident. I don't have to go around screaming at people, "I EXIST! I EXIST, DAMMIT! WHY THE HELL DON'T YOU BELIEVE IN ME?" Maybe the reason some people don't believe in God is because he does such a perfect impression of a non-existent being.
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 08:50 am
@rydinearth,
I am deeply religious and you cannot challenge my faith............woof.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 09:33 am
@rydinearth,
ryd, All good points, but I'm sure Chumly was just "pulling your leg."
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 09:54 am
@cicerone imposter,
I admit it!
0 Replies
 
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 11:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
ryd, All good points, but I'm sure Chumly was just "pulling your leg."

Oh.......well then...............
nevermind
:-p
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Mar, 2009 01:14 pm
Hi rydinearth,
do continue to post; on average ever time the arguments for atheism fall mostly on deaf ears, to Man's net disadvantage.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 10:52 am
@Chumly,
Chumly wrote:

Hi rydinearth,
do continue to post; on average ever time the arguments for atheism fall mostly on deaf ears, to Man's net disadvantage.
Unfortunately, most arguments for atheism seem to originate from an underlying desire for license.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 12:17 pm
@neologist,
License to do what? We just want to be left alone without being forced through legislation that are religious' based such as a) restrict stem cell research, b) teach ID in public schools, c) discrimination against gays and lesbians denied "marriage," and d) intrusion into privates lives concerning abortion.
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 12:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Is that what differs atheists from believers?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 12:56 pm
@Intrepid,
Generally, yes. Atheists do not believe in any god who watches over us. We don't need religious people telling us what we can or can't do based on their religious beliefs. You are free to do all those things in your own lives, but quit intruding into other people's lives with your beliefs.

We want freedom from religion.
0 Replies
 
auroreII
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2009 08:26 am
Christ On the cross represents love because sometimes love requires a sacrifice.
Anyone who has ever had a child knows what it is like to make sacrifices for that child out of love.
Christ who is perfect in all his ways was the only person ever justified. As the son of God, and justified, he could have demanded justice and being justified could have gotten it, but as Paul says , who then would be able to stand- who else is perfect? The bible says no one. St. Paul knew that he wasn't perfect, oh wretched man that he was, but he also knew God's love through his son's love by Jesus's willingness to sacrifice his righteousness rather than to demand revenge and justice. St. Paul knew that it was through Christ's forgiveness of his sins that he could be justified and have everlasting life.
Jesus opened for us the whole concept of love and fighting evil with love rather than seeking justice with hatred, anger and murder. What a horrible world that would be if that were the case. (I believe that is what is happening in the middle east with calls for jihad.) Jesus offers his salvation to all who will pick up their cross and follow him. And through justification for our sins by his sacrifice evil cannot win over us even though we too may have to make sacrifices for love. And no, it will not seem just. Kindness and mercy in all things, without Christ's sacrifice, what would have you for following these things? Jesus's day of reckoning is coming when his followers will be justified and evil will be reap its reward.
God gave us the freedom to choose. Love isn't love unless it is freely given.
Well that's my opinion of one reason christians suffer.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2009 09:59 am
@auroreII,
Love doesn't require "sacrifice" if you are god. Think about that. Why did god kill all those innocent people with his great flood? Love means to forgive, and not to extract vengeance on whole populations out of anger.

The man-made christian god has too many flaws.
Lightwizard
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Mar, 2009 01:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The great flood was the designer's giant eraser 'cause he screwed it up so badly the first time. What's his excuse for the redraft -- schizophrenia?
I'm just wondering he, she, it did it to all the other habitable planets in the Universe? Oh, I forgot, we're unique in the Universe. The prototype. He, she it, also wanted us to see something when we looked up at the night sky, so he, she, it drew up a bunch of stars and galaxies. Basic black is boring.
 

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