5
   

Why does God permit suffering?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 04:48 pm
@aidan,
I agree; most people are influenced by their culture and environment/social expectations. That's the reason why parents and peer groups can influence how we "end" up. Some kids with great potential might hook up with the wrong gang or friends, and ruin their life.
0 Replies
 
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 09:12 am
Question: How do you spell "God" without an "F"?
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 12:12 am
@rydinearth,
Quote:
Question: How do you spell "God" without an "F"?

Answer: There is no "F"- in God.
Treya
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 09:04 am
@rydinearth,
LOL THAT was funny! rydinearth you totally walked into that one!
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 10:06 am
@Treya,
Gfod?
Fgod?
Arthur Godf(rey)?
0 Replies
 
rydinearth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Mar, 2009 10:25 am
@Treya,
Quote:
LOL THAT was funny! rydinearth you totally walked into that one!

If ya notice, I couldn't get any takers, so I had to walk into my own trap. Oh well.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 03:54 am
@Intrepid,

Absolutely.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 08:06 am
@rydinearth,
well... your playing with some pretty sharp knives around here... Heh... that was pretty funny though!
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 06:46 am
@Treya,
What amuses me is not so much that man invented gods, and more recently God, but that the personality of God is speculated upon in such detail. Why does God permit suffering? God is all merciful, and jealous as hell. He's all knowing but allows bad people to come into the world. He's all powerful, but is he powerful enough to change his mind? There are as many concepts about God as there are people capable of thought. Its time to come to the obvious conclusion and move on.
0 Replies
 
rydinearth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 08:00 am
Warning: I'm about to get very real, and probably offend some people. I apologize in advance. All I have to do is think for ten seconds about the 911 disaster, for example, and that's enough for me. When I think of the last moments of those poor people, some of whom may have been slow roasted to death, others suffocated by poisonous gases and fumes, others crushed to death beneath tons of rubble, others who had to make the agonizing decision whether to be burned to death or jump thousands of feet to their deaths. If I think about it for even ten seconds, it becomes too much for me to bear. My only thought is, if I were a God, and I knew that sentient beings were suffering to that degree, and I had the power to stop it, I wouldn't even think about it for a second. Yet we're to believe that God allows this kind of suffering every second of every day throughout the world, and does nothing, and yet claims to be the very definition of love. We're also to believe that he has specifically created a place where human beings who live according to the nature HE himself created in them, and who are not fortunate enough to find the correct religion, (ie the vast majority of souls who have ever lived) will be slow roasted alive for all eternity, with no relief and no hope for escape; not for purposes of eventual rehabilitation, but for nothing other than sadistic revenge, which can never be satiated. And yet we're to trust that this being is the author of love itself; that our love is nothing compared to His, that he loves us and has our best interests at heart. How can anyone think about that for 5 seconds without their brain exploding? What hope is there for meaningful dialogue, for appeal to reason, with a mind that can entertain such thoughts as this? And not only so, but with such a degree of certainty as to entertain no room for doubt or dissention whatsoever. It almost seems a waste of time.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 01:04 pm
@rydinearth,
It doesn't take much thinking to realize that a "loving" god really doesn't exist. What is more interesting to me is that the bible itself shows the wrath of god more than the love of god, and yet the readers of the bible come out believing in god's love.

I could never understand that!
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 04:31 pm
@Treya,
Treya wrote:

neologist wrote:

Hi Treya.

Wazzup?


Hey neo! Smile Not much going on here. How are you doing?
Swamped by eBay.

I sell survival items. LOL!
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 04:34 pm
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:

Free will has become the handy religious excuse for the ills of the world.

As has the claim that we are without free will and, hence, with only conditional responsibility.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 04:38 pm
@rydinearth,
rydinearth wrote:

Quote:
And you know this is true? How?

This is just the traditional view of God. Show me any religion where God admits responsibility for anything; Show me a God who says, "I regret that I have created a flawed being. I devote myself eternally to correcting my mistake." Nope. Instead (to take most Abrahamic religions as an example) God says, "I created them perfectly. It's their own fault they're flawed. " He never explains how a thing can be created perfect and yet have within it the seeds of imperfection. But one thing is clear. Whatever is wrong with us, he's not taking the slightest responsibility for it. Instead he's placing the blame squarely upon us. It's rather like creating a 2 legged stool and blaming it for not standing up.
Our first human parents chose their imperfection.

That's what the knowledge of good an bad is all about.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 04:44 pm
@rydinearth,
rydinearth wrote:

Warning: I'm about to get very real, and probably offend some people. I apologize in advance. All I have to do is think for ten seconds about the 911 disaster, for example, and that's enough for me. When I think of the last moments of those poor people, some of whom may have been slow roasted to death, others suffocated by poisonous gases and fumes, others crushed to death beneath tons of rubble, others who had to make the agonizing decision whether to be burned to death or jump thousands of feet to their deaths. If I think about it for even ten seconds, it becomes too much for me to bear. My only thought is, if I were a God, and I knew that sentient beings were suffering to that degree, and I had the power to stop it, I wouldn't even think about it for a second. Yet we're to believe that God allows this kind of suffering every second of every day throughout the world, and does nothing, and yet claims to be the very definition of love. We're also to believe that he has specifically created a place where human beings who live according to the nature HE himself created in them, and who are not fortunate enough to find the correct religion, (ie the vast majority of souls who have ever lived) will be slow roasted alive for all eternity, with no relief and no hope for escape; not for purposes of eventual rehabilitation, but for nothing other than sadistic revenge, which can never be satiated. And yet we're to trust that this being is the author of love itself; that our love is nothing compared to His, that he loves us and has our best interests at heart. How can anyone think about that for 5 seconds without their brain exploding? What hope is there for meaningful dialogue, for appeal to reason, with a mind that can entertain such thoughts as this? And not only so, but with such a degree of certainty as to entertain no room for doubt or dissention whatsoever. It almost seems a waste of time.
Exactly why one might expect that God, in some context, would explain why all this happens and what he intends to do about it.

The fact that you and I may have acted sooner proves nothing about God, but may have volumes to say about us.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 04:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It doesn't take much thinking to realize that a "loving" god really doesn't exist. What is more interesting to me is that the bible itself shows the wrath of god more than the love of god, and yet the readers of the bible come out believing in god's love.

I could never understand that!
I can see from having read your posts for these many years that you are an extremely compassionate person. If there is indeed a God who created you, then how could you deny that he must possess these qualities in even greater degree? How else could he have imparted them to you?
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 05:18 pm
@neologist,
God didn't create me; my parents did. You know, they had sex.

BTW, neo, did you hear about that woman in Southern California who had children through implants? God created them too!
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 12:43 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

God didn't create me; my parents did. You know, they had sex.

BTW, neo, did you hear about that woman in Southern California who had children through implants? God created them too!
I said if. You obviously had fine parents.

Our never ending propensity for screwing things up is not God's fault.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:10 am
@rydinearth,
Quote:
I'm about to get very real, and probably offend some people. I apologize in advance. All I have to do is think for ten seconds about the 911 disaster, for example, and that's enough for me. When I think of the last moments of those poor people, some of whom may have been slow roasted to death, others suffocated by poisonous gases and fumes, others crushed to death beneath tons of rubble, others who had to make the agonizing decision whether to be burned to death or jump thousands of feet to their deaths. If I think about it for even ten seconds, it becomes too much for me to bear. My only thought is, if I were a God, and I knew that sentient beings were suffering to that degree, and I had the power to stop it, I wouldn't even think about it for a second. Yet we're to believe that God allows this kind of suffering every second of every day throughout the world, and does nothing, and yet claims to be the very definition of love. We're also to believe that he has specifically created a place where human beings who live according to the nature HE himself created in them, and who are not fortunate enough to find the correct religion, (ie the vast majority of souls who have ever lived) will be slow roasted alive for all eternity, with no relief and no hope for escape; not for purposes of eventual rehabilitation, but for nothing other than sadistic revenge, which can never be satiated. And yet we're to trust that this being is the author of love itself; that our love is nothing compared to His, that he loves us and has our best interests at heart. How can anyone think about that for 5 seconds without their brain exploding? What hope is there for meaningful dialogue, for appeal to reason, with a mind that can entertain such thoughts as this? And not only so, but with such a degree of certainty as to entertain no room for doubt or dissention whatsoever. It almost seems a waste of time.


My mind doesn't entertain such thoughts as this. I don't picture God up there watching numerous views of what's happening on the earth at every single moment, like a security guard with his various screens so that he can watch every entrance and exit and jump in to save the day if necessary. I also don't envision any slow roasting going on after anyone's death (except as is necessary to dispose of the body).

I think how individuals choose to view their particular God says more about the individual than the God. Because it IS a choice.
If someone had presented me the God that you present , and said, 'Here- believe in this,' I'd have had to say, 'Nope, sorry, can't do it.'

Here's an Arabic carol taken from an ecumenical centre in Bethlehem called the Sabeel. Sabeel mean, 'channel' or 'spring'. I heard this on Christmas eve because I went to the church two of my friends attend - both 86 year old bachelors. Sid is the organist and Jack is a congregant and they invited me. It was the most wonderful church service I ever attended - because I heard this:

Quote:
On the eve of Christmas
hatred will vanish
the earth will flourish
war will be gone
and love will be born.

When one offers a glass of water to a thirsty person
It is Christmas
When we clothe a naked person with a gown of love
It is Christmas
When we wipe the tears from weeping eyes
It is Christmas

When the spirit of revenge dies within me
It is Christmas
When in my heart I no longer want to stay apart
It is Christmas
When I am buried in the being of God (which is love)
It is Christmas


Okay - now substitute God for Christmas. And then in your mind - substitute Love for God.

That's the God I believe in which informs who I am, how I act and what I believe.
You may say - I don't need God to believe in love. And maybe some people don't. Or maybe they just don't call it God - maybe they think it just sprang from their own hearts and minds unbidden.
I think the best part of me was informed by love - I call that God - and I think if we all worshipped 'love toward one's neighbor' - we wouldn't have to wonder or worry about where events we don't understand come from - we'd know.

And I'm not worried at all about what comes after this life. I just worry about what I'm supposed to be and do now.

Hallelujah! Church has ended - no go out and do good deeds.

What religion would you call that? Laughing Laughing
Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:04 pm
@neologist,
cicerone imposter wrote:

God didn't create me; my parents did. You know, they had sex.
Surely not! Sex wasn't invented until the 1960's! Smile

Good to see you still banging sense into these people ci
 

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