Why does God permit suffering?

So the fault is not ours, but God's?

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Yes, of course it is God's fault, unless you seriously believe that Adam and Eve had the knowledge, ability and desire to create the noxious lifeforms and change their own DNA so that they and their descendents would suffer.

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Terry wrote:

Yes, of course it is God's fault, unless you seriously believe that Adam and Eve had the knowledge, ability and desire to create the noxious lifeforms and change their own DNA so that they and their descendents would suffer.

Which god?

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The Judeo-Christian God as delineated in the Bible, or an alternative creator-deity of your choice who devised suffering as punishment for being human, and has the power to relieve it but generally chooses not to do so.

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Terry wrote:

Man is incapable of designing and creating bacteria, viruses, parasites, pests, weeds, predators, and all of the other life forms that plague us and cause so much suffering.

The future (and present) of bio engineering and genetics etc. potentially disputes your premise as we become more 'godlike'. Man created god and it is us.

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Chumly wrote:

Terry wrote:
Man is incapable of designing and creating bacteria, viruses, parasites, pests, weeds, predators, and all of the other life forms that plague us and cause so much suffering.
The future (and present) of bio engineering and genetics etc. potentially disputes your premise as we become more 'godlike'. Man created god and it is us.

Someone who does not think will remain totally distant from truths and lead his life in self-deception and error. As a result, he will not grasp the purpose of the creation of the world, and the reason for his existence on the earth. Yet, God has created everything with a purpose.

We did not create the heavens and the earth and everything between them as a game. We did not create them except with truth but most of them do not know it. (Surat ad-Dukhan: 38-39)

Did you suppose that We created you for amusement and that you would not return to Us? (Surat al-Muminun: 115)

Know you (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of Allah). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception? (Surat al-Hadid: 20) (Surat ar-Rum: 8)

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Yeah, but Raul;

Why does your god permit suffering?

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neologist wrote:

Yeah, but Raul;

Why does your god permit suffering?

You mean OUR God; there is only ONE God.

But I replied to this before; God premits suffering as a test to his worhshippers to see who will be patient and who will go astray.

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Raul-7 wrote:

God premits suffering as a test to his worhshippers to see who will be patient and who will go astray.

So the patient ones suffer? But not everyone. Some lead charmed lives, no suffering at all. why? And suppose you struggle against suffering, fight the flood, move away from the famine, get your family fed by any means...is that going astray? Are muslims just supposed to sit there and take it, no matter what even if they die... and if they resist and fight against suffering it means they have gone astray?

These philosophical contortions that try to explain how an omniscient omnipotent and ever present God wear thin when in PRACTICE i.e. when you really might just need a bit of omnipotent help is not around.

Where was god/Allah in the Auschwitz gas chambers? Where was god during the Asian Tsunami? Where was god on 9/11?

[on 911 some say giving instruction to the hijack pilots]

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Don't resist the hand of god and you'll be redeemed sooner Rolling Eyes

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Raul-7 wrote:
God premits suffering as a test to his worhshippers to see who will be patient and who will go astray.
So the patient ones suffer? But not everyone. Some lead charmed lives, no suffering at all. why? And suppose you struggle against suffering, fight the flood, move away from the famine, get your family fed by any means...is that going astray? Are muslims just supposed to sit there and take it, no matter what even if they die... and if they resist and fight against suffering it means they have gone astray?

These philosophical contortions that try to explain how an omniscient omnipotent and ever present God wear thin when in PRACTICE i.e. when you really might just need a bit of omnipotent help is not around.

Where was god/Allah in the Auschwitz gas chambers? Where was god during the Asian Tsunami? Where was god on 9/11?

[on 911 some say giving instruction to the hijack pilots]

(Surat al-Ankaboot, 29:2-3)

Being patient doesn't mean you have to stay back untill your family perishes, what it means is how will you react when you face a problem. Are you going to lose faith in God? Or stay true and submit in his will (Islam)?

And you do not know what God knows so why are judging these past events based on your knowledge? How do you know God hasn't rewarded them with his eternal paradise?

It may be that you hate something when it is good for you and it may be that you love something when it is bad for you. Allah knows and you do not know. (Surat al-Baqara: 216)

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So when a two year old develops cystic fibrosis, this is Allah testing the strength of her faith through her suffering?

Truly, He is merciful. Rolling Eyes

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Who are you to judge? You do not know what God knows.

How do you know she will not die and go to heaven early rather than face this pitiful life full of deception?

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Punishing one person for the actions of another is immoral.

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God: I've lost faith in Blair..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1725799,00.html

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Raul-7 wrote:

Who are you to judge? You do not know what God knows.

Of course not. Noone does. Because God, if such a being exists, is an incredibly secretive bastard.

Quote:

How do you know she will not die and go to heaven early rather than face this pitiful life full of deception?

This is why people fear and hate religion.

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Raul-7 wrote:

Who are you to judge? You do not know what God knows.

How do you know she will not die and go to heaven early rather than face this pitiful life full of deception?

Because when you're dead, you're dead.

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Suffering is not an 'event.' It is an outlook; a mental state of being. It is rooted solely in the individual's perspective--their 'line of sight,' so to speak.

Pain and grief are often triggers for suffering. But not always. One might suffer, without seeking reprieve, and grow bitter (further, terminal suffering).
Or one might suffer for a time, then find relief in a moment's unexpected clarity via a sudden new thought (a direct sign of widened perspective).

More often, suffering is caused by discontent: 'If only I had'
*this or that thing
*this much money
*this person back from the grave
*a better job
*a slimmer waist
*straighter teeth
*more prestige
and on and on and on and on...

It never ends through being satisfied--it can only be ceased. It is part of the Master plan--but the Master has done His part. Now we must do our part. It is about 'letting go.'

We are here to understand the nature of suffering and overcome that nature (a.k.a. 'human' nature OR 'ego'). Blaming God for our human state of mind (from the premise that it is a flawed state) is a sign there is still much progress to be made. Blaming one's self (for being human, with an ego, like we were created) signals the same thing. Blaming the 'devil' is a certain handicap and hindrance to future progress.

'When wishes are few, the heart is happy. When desire ends, there is peace.' ~Buddhist proverb

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queen annie wrote:

More often, suffering is caused by discontent

I am sure your views would have gone over swimmingly with the over 6 million Jews who were simply "discontent" when they were raped brutalized and slaughtered by the Nazis.

I am sure your views would have gone over swimmingly with the millions of Jews who were simply "discontent" when they were raped brutalized and slaughtered by the Russians during the pogroms.

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Chumly wrote:

queen annie wrote:
More often, suffering is caused by discontent
I am sure your views would have gone over swimmingly with the over 6 million Jews who were simply "discontent" when they were raped brutalized and slaughtered by the Nazis.

No way.

Huh-uh.

Nothing you can say can get me to go there to that subject again. Rolling Eyes

In general, outside of any specific circumstances--I am absolutely certain that my 'views' would go over swimmingly, as you say, with anyone who is suffering. Because, as I said, it is a state of mind. There is no comfort for suffering, only cessation.

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Why does God permit suffering?

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