Islam

muslim1 wrote:

And Allah knows best.

no he doesn't, unless you meant about how to make blood thirsty lunatics of camel jockeys.

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This life is a test for human beings to believe in their Creator without seeing Him. If they could see Allah in this life, the whole test would be without meaning.

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The Bible tells of countless examples of life being a test.

Maybe two gods having a bet with each other? Most converts at the end of time wins?

Or it could be the only possible faithful answer when faced with the complete lack of evidence of any gods anywhere ever?

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Quote:

This life is a test for human beings to believe in their Creator without seeing Him. If they could see Allah in this life, the whole test would be without meaning.

If life is test of faith over reason why is it such a blatantly unfair test? What about the billions of people, living and dead who had no knowledge of this "test", who have never heard of Mohammed or who have come to their own conclusions about divinity and morality? Are they to be cast into the fires of eternal damnation because no one told them there was a test going on?

Testing implies observation and the application of reason, the very opposite of "faith".

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Quote:
This life is a test for human beings to believe in their Creator without seeing Him. If they could see Allah in this life, the whole test would be without meaning.

If life is test of faith over reason why is it such a blatantly unfair test? What about the billions of people, living and dead who had no knowledge of this "test", who have never heard of Mohammed or who have come to their own conclusions about divinity and morality? Are they to be cast into the fires of eternal damnation because no one told them there was a test going on?

Testing implies observation and the application of reason, the very opposite of "faith".

It is not an unfair test, Steve. Your Creator will never send someone into hellfire without reason, without proof, without being warned. Allah Almighty says: "... nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning)." [Glorious Qur'an 17:15].

One of the names and attributes of your Creator is "The Just". Many verses of the Holy Qur'an show that Almighty Allah does not do the slightest injustice. For example:
-"Allah is never unjust in the least degree" [Glorious Qur'an 4:40]
-"And not one will thy Lord treat with injustice." [Glorious Qur'an 18:49]

If someone hears about the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him), studies his noble life, understands his glorious teachings and then rejects him, then he/she failed the test, and God - in His infinite wisdom - decides whether to punish him/her or not.

Here is a similarity to help you understand the situation: Imagine a very powerful King and a very poor person. The king gives daily food, shelter, and care to the poor. One day, the King sends a very noble and honest messenger with a message: "Obey me (the king) in a few easy things and try your best to follow my messenger, and I'll transform you into a very rich person, I'll give you palaces, gardens next to me, and all your desires will be completely achieved. Moreover, if you have any difficulties to follow my orders, just ask me for assistance and I'll immediately help you". If the poor rejects, humiliates and expels the messenger, doesn't the King then have the right to punish him?
Apply this to the King of Kings (Allah Almighty), to the most honest and trustworthy Messenger (Muhammad Peace and blessings be upon him) and to the poor, needy and weak human beings.

Don't worry Steve, life is the fairest test.

And Allah knows best.

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translation. blow up a plane full of infidels and I'll give you an eternity with endless virgins to f***!

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muslim1 wrote:

If someone hears about the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him), studies his noble life, understands his glorious teachings and then rejects him, then he/she failed the test, and God - in His infinite wisdom - decides whether to punish him/her or not.

Very well but what does Islam say about the fate of all those millions if not billions of people who never got to hear the message, because they were dead before the time of Islam, or because they never heard it when they were alive? They didnt reject it, they just never heard it. What does Islam say is the fate of such people?

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The Bible has a better answer. All those who never knew God wil get another chance.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

muslim1 wrote:
If someone hears about the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him), studies his noble life, understands his glorious teachings and then rejects him, then he/she failed the test, and God - in His infinite wisdom - decides whether to punish him/her or not.
Very well but what does Islam say about the fate of all those millions if not billions of people who never got to hear the message, because they were dead before the time of Islam, or because they never heard it when they were alive? They didn't reject it, they just never heard it. What does Islam say is the fate of such people?

The first thing that you should know, Steve, and clearly understand about Islam is what the word "Islam" itself means. The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah". Hence, Islam was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form.
Islam is the religion which was given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jesus, Moses, Muhammad... (Peace be upon them all).

So, for the people who lived before Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him), they had to follow their respective Messengers. For example, the people who lived at the time of Messenger Jesus (Peace be upon him) had to follow and obey him in order to enter Paradise. And since Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) is the last and final Messenger of God Almighty, all the people living on earth today (including you and I) have to follow and obey him in order to enter Paradise.

Now, what about a person who, all his life, never heard about the teachings of the respective Messenger (sent during his life)? Such person is part of the "People of Fatra", which means people who never got to hear a message from God. Those people will be tested by the "The Just" (God) in the Day of Judgment, a day where there will be no injustice.

Again, don't worry Steve. We will all be judged by Allah, God, The Just, The Equitable, The most Gracious, The Most Merciful.

And Allah knows best.

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well thats an interesting answer, thanks.

I'd never heard of the People of Fatra before. Where did that expression come from? Did Mohammed mention it?

The problem for me with Islam is that once you pronounce it perfect, you have to invent ever more convoluted ideas and solutions to get around the obvious questions that people (like me) might ask.

It seems from what you said that everyone must accept the Messenger of his time. But once a new messenger arrives everyone must change. Do muslims believe that the Jews who obviously accepted Noah and Moses were wrong in not accepting Jesus? Moreover how can we possibly be sure Mohammed is the last, you mentioned Adam Abraham Noah Moses Jesus Mohammed..supposing Steve42oo comes along with some ideas about divinity and proclaims he is the latest prophet in quite a long tradition? Moreover he says if you hear his message and reject it, you are destined to eternal damnation...

And before you say Steve42oo is obviously a false prophet, how the heck would you know for sure?

For me Islam is riddled with contradictions and unaswerable questions. God gave us brains and sensibility to understand the world. We have used our intelligence and ingenuity to learn about the awesome Universe in which we live. What we know is quite incompatible with the simple ideas of Islam.

One last question. If man's natural state is muslim how can People of Fatra exist?

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Steve wrote:

I'd never heard of the People of Fatra before. Where did that expression come from? Did Mohammed mention it?

Yes. There are Ahadiths (Sayings of the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him) which prove what I wrote in my previous post about the people of Fatra(*).

Steve wrote:

The problem for me with Islam is that once you pronounce it perfect, you have to invent ever more convoluted ideas and solutions to get around the obvious questions that people (like me) might ask.

Islam is indeed perfect and valid anywhere anytime. Now, if I do not give a convincing explanation about an Islamic issue, this means that I made an error, that I have a problem (may Allah forgive me), it doesn't mean Islam is false. Islam is Perfect, we are not. I am not a scholar of Islam, but I try my best to present the Perfect way of life designed by God, and that is Islam.

Steve wrote:

And before you say Steve42oo is obviously a false prophet, how the heck would you know for sure?

Anyone can pretend to be a messenger, not only Steve42oo but even Steve43oo. However, would this person be able to prove himself a true messenger of God? For a person to claim that he receives revelation from Almighty God, he has to prove that he's indeed a Messenger of God, he has to bring and perform miracles. Do Steve44oo or Steve45oo have miracles for me to believe they're Prophets?
Look for example at Jesus (Peace be upon him), he had done several miracles: he could heal the blind by God's permission, he could bring the dead to life with God's permission, he received a Holy Book, the Injil (the original true Bible). All those miracles testify that Jesus (Peace be upon him) was a Messenger to his people. Similarly, Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) had a great deal of miracles (night journey to the heavens, splitting of the moon...), and the miracle of miracles is indeed the Holy Qur'an, a Perfect Book, without the slightest error, a Book which guides many people to the truth every day, a Book totally memorized (by heart) today by millions of Muslims, including non-Arabs who do not understand a single Arabic word (btw, is there any Christian on earth who memorizes the whole of today's Bible?)

Steve wrote:

God gave us brains and sensibility to understand the world. We have used our intelligence and ingenuity to learn about the awesome Universe in which we live.

I am glad your recognize God as the Creator of brains and sensibility, and that's absolutely true. I agree with you that God gave us brains and sensibility to understand the world, but that's not all. God gave us - human beings - intelligence so that we can rule the world according to His commands, according to what is beneficial for us and for the world. We have also to thank God because He uplifted and favored us over other creatures.

Steve wrote:

What we know is quite incompatible with the simple ideas of Islam.

For example?

Steve wrote:

One last question. If man's natural state is muslim how can People of Fatra exist?

Every person is indeed born muslim. But, even if they are born muslims, they may (in the absence of a Messenger's guidance) follow their own concept of divinity and thus deviate from the truth.
If human beings could stay on their natural state (born muslims) without the teachings of Messengers, then God wouldn't have sent them. God, in His infinite wisdom, knows that revelations (and therefore Messengers) are necessary for the guidance of humanity.

And Allah knows best.

(*) Fatra is an Arabic word that literally means "period".

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Eorl wrote:

Quote:
This life is a test for human beings to believe in their Creator without seeing Him. If they could see Allah in this life, the whole test would be without meaning.

Quote:
The Bible tells of countless examples of life being a test.

Maybe two gods having a bet with each other? Most converts at the end of time wins?

yes you hit the nail on the head.

thats why X-ianity and I-slam are the 2 most blood thirsty religions ever. entire countries, civilizations and continents have been hacked by them.

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Eorl wrote:

Maybe two gods having a bet with each other?

"If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both" [Glorious Qur'an 21:22]

The Universe cannot be ruled and maintained except by One and a Unique God.

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One of the stupidest arguments I read in a while... Yust couldn't restrain myself from commenting.

Before you ask any questions and give any explanations, please review your own position and your own religion from the viewpoint of the otherside. Ask yourselves why is the other side thinking that way.

As an man searching the truth, I have a dislike thowards any religion. Be it Islam or Christianity. The only exception I make with Buddhism (which in it's pure form is not a religion).

Pearsonaly, I think that pure Islam is in many ways superior of Christianity. I see it as more refined, and better for a human being.
But, Islam today is not the pure form.
And, Christianity today is not the pure form.
In both religions there are men claiming to be their part, but whose actions have nothing to do with their religion's ideas.

If you "Westerners" think the West so superior, then why do you have so many murderers, psychical illneses, social injustices, etc. Did Islam search to produce for example Nuclear weapons, a threat to all humanity?
Read Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Heidegger, Jaspers, Marcuse and so on, and ask yourself is the West the best possible?
Is technology better than humanity, and vice versa.
And, for a people (Americans) proud of their right to free speach, freedom of press and such, many of you are strangely full of hate thowards those who think differently?

And for you Muslims, you must come to realize that it is possible for the Kur'an to be "polluted" over the years by man, as could the Bible be. (I'm saying this from the standpoint that you may be right that there exists the one God Allah.) These books have been too long in the hands of men, many vile and power-hungry.

To use the words of a al-Gazali:
"Do not judge the truth by the man, judge the man by the truth."
If you are trying to prove a point, then prove a point. In logic it is considered invalid when you attack a pearson to dispute his argument.

Both religions have had their bloodsheds, so lets see who can count which side had more victims in history? Who of you can quantify every pearson killed by islamic fundamentalist and crusaders?
Stop looking back, and start looking thowards the future.

If thousands of philosophers, theologists, sociologists etc ... haven't been able to answer these questions you are asking, what the hell makes any of you think that you will be able?

In stead of working together to better the world, you argue over this?

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Thank you Shinobi for your valuable remarks and welcome to the forum,

Shinobi wrote:

As an man searching the truth, I have a dislike thowards any religion. Be it Islam or Christianity.

Correct me if I am wrong, but does this mean that religion teaches "falsehood"?

Shinobi wrote:

But, Islam today is not the pure form.

However, the sources of Islam (the Holy Qur'an and the authentic teachings of Prophet Muhammad Peace and blessings be upon him) are still intact and in their pure form.
In my opinion, if we want to judge a religion, we should study the sources on which it is based, instead of studying the behavior of the people who claim they represent this religion.

Shinobi wrote:

And for you Muslims, you must come to realize that it is possible for the Kur'an to be "polluted" over the years by man

The Holy Qur'an we have today is exactly the same revealed by God to His last and final Messenger 1400 years ago. And as long as a person is logical, he/she will not find a single mistake, error or contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

Shinobi wrote:

Stop looking back, and start looking thowards the future.

I agree. But in order to have a better world, we have to agree on a common set of ideas/concepts.
Which basis do you suggest for humanity to work on?

Thank you for your comments.

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I thought this thread was about the different sects of islam, it seems some people use it for a "I hate Islam" thread, doesn't matter what religion you are, as long as you are good person i don't think anyone would be damned to hell, there are bad apples in every bag, so defining a religion by their extremists is not just stupid but irresponsible.

I don't think and responsible Islamic Cleric would tell someone to suicide bomb, while promising 20 virgins in the after life. (Personally I would prefer 20 sluts and would like it defined as 20 beautiful female sluts, but thats a different story)

Remember the worlds biggest mass murderers where not muslims. (Mao, Stalin & hitler to name but a few). Remember if you are a christian you must love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek.

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And if you're neither a christian or a muslim, they're all fruitcakes.

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Yup

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Glad to be here....

muslim1 wrote:

Shinobi wrote:
As an man searching the truth, I have a dislike thowards any religion. Be it Islam or Christianity.

Correct me if I am wrong, but does this mean that religion teaches "falsehood"?

Well, you could think of it as that. But, the correct point would be that I can not search for the truth if I've found it in any religion.

Quote:

The Holy Qur'an we have today is exactly the same revealed by God to His last and final Messenger 1400 years ago. And as long as a person is logical, he/she will not find a single mistake, error or contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

I was not speaking of errors. For, it to be the book of God, it would be "error free". I am speaking of this: If the Qur'an was given as a Book of God, then it is perfectly acording to god's will. But, does he influence the world in a way to ensure it remains correct or not, is unknown. Maybe he is testing the faithfull? As a beliver, you must be aware of that possibility.

My basis for humanity? I'm not so bold (or crazy) to give any.
I would say, yust allow everyone to chose. Freely. In time, the biggest truth will dominate. I have a "trust" in human potential.
If Islam is that truth, then it will dominate.

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Is it not true that Mohammed died before completing the Koran?

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Shinobi, muslims have a different philosiphy. Kill those who don't agree and kill those who try to leave. Any time there's more than two muslims together there's violence. A rather normal trend amongst wild animals.

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