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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 06:29 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Eh, yes, you do.


That's funny, my 5 year old cousin owns a fake gun.

Don't you mean 'you kill a man with a fake gun... if he's brandishing it at you or someone else?'

Tell me, who was Iraq brandishing it's fake gun at when we went to war?

Cycloptichorn
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 07:57 pm
You guys are brilliant in your hindsight. VERY impressive.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:07 pm
Okay, so who was he brandishing his fake OR real guns at?

Noone.

I've been against the Iraq war since day -120. Ever since I realized Bush wasn't interested in finding Bin Laden. Hindsight, my ass...

Cycloptichorn
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:07 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
You guys are brilliant in your hindsight. VERY impressive.
even my hindsight is dyslexic but I would not invade another nation based on suspicion. (even Grenada)
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:11 pm
I'm not doing Iraq on this thread. We've done too many times already, and this isn't the place.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:12 pm
It's related. Everything's related to Iraq, and certainly McCain, Giuliani and the Republicans are related...
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:15 pm
BS, there's 1,000 other threads dedicated to it. Besides; I didn't tell you what to or not do. I'm not doing it.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:16 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
BS, there's 1,000 other threads dedicated to it. Besides; I didn't tell you what to or not do. I'm not doing it.

Grenada? It was a slam dunk!
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:23 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
You guys are brilliant in your hindsight. VERY impressive.


<shrugs>

Well, the coverage in your news back at the time was certainly different from the one in Europe. I was quite amazed at watching the statement of Bush admin officials, and, in contrast, the reports that Blix gave about the progress of the UN inspectors in Iraq.

On the one side, you had Rice talking about mushroom clouds, Rumsfeld insulting nations that didn't go along with the US, Cheney talking about the exact locations of the WMD and about being greeted as liberators, and finally, Powell giving his eerie speech at the UN.

On the other side, you had Blix explaining that cooperation between UNMOVIC and Iraqi officials was improving, that inspectors had unhindered access to virtually all sites across the country, that surveillance planes and drones were now operating, that remaining contingents of short range missiles had been destroyed under supervision of UN inspectors...

And then, the invasion.

And Americans who responded in polls, even half a year after the invasion, that they believed that Saddam had been behind 9/11. And that, in fact, WMD had been found in Iraq.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:24 pm
It's not that our hindsight is so impressive, it's that some people's foresight is so deficient.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:33 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I'm not doing Iraq on this thread. We've done too many times already, and this isn't the place.


But it's all going to be about Iraq. Just look at how Ron Paul is being bashed among conservatives because he came out against the war...

It has huge ramifications. It's more important than, say, illegal immigration, or abortion, or gay marriage...
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:33 pm
Free Duck wrote: It's not that our hindsight is so impressive, it's that some people's foresight is so deficient.


Spot on!
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:35 pm
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I could have ghost written any one of your opinions two years ago. I'm sure between you you can ghost write mine. Go ahead and spam up another thread with it. F*ck the people who wanted to discuss topic related stuff. Rolling Eyes
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:44 pm
Bill
The WMD was cooked intel. All intel that stated Saddam Hussein had no WMD's was ignored. That's why Zinni left the Bush administration and came out against invading Iraq. As CENTCOM commander he knew there was very good intel that Saddam had destroyed his WMD.

What the Bush administration was using as a working model was Cheney's 1% rule. Remember that?

Quote:
In his heralded new book, "The One Percent Doctrine," Ron Suskind writes that Vice President Dick Cheney forcefully stated that the war on terror empowered the Bush administration to act without the need for evidence or extensive analysis.

Suskind describes the Cheney doctrine as follows: "Even if there's just a 1 percent chance of the unimaginable coming due, act as if it is a certainty. It's not about 'our analysis,' as Cheney said. It's about 'our response.' … Justified or not, fact-based or not, 'our response' is what matters. As to 'evidence,' the bar was set so low that the word itself almost didn't apply."


http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2120605&page=1

Hence if a country is 1% guilty of whatever, we can attack it; and that attack may be done by nuclear weapons, as has been suggested for Iran. It didn't manner if Hans Blix didn't find any WMD's in Iraq. Saddam was 1% guilty and that's all we needed to attack him.

To conservatives who love war, 1% is good enough for them. It's also good enough to attack Syria and Iran.

With the Bush administration you don't need evidence; you just make the accusation and attack them. To hell with evidence. Just put out some trash for the ignorant masses and do it. Once it's done it can't be undone.

That's what this administration is like; we'll do anything we like and to hell with the American people and their Congress.

We rule.

Piss on you.

BTW

"We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." -National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, on Iraq's nuclear capabilities and the Bush administration's case for war, Sept. 8, 2002

Today it's the same message but different country.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:57 pm
"Fear" has always been this admnistration's standard tactic.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 08:58 pm
Bush now uses, "if we don't fight them there, we'll have to fight them here."
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 12:49 am
old europe wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I'm not doing Iraq on this thread. We've done too many times already, and this isn't the place.


But it's all going to be about Iraq. Just look at how Ron Paul is being bashed among conservatives because he came out against the war...

It has huge ramifications. It's more important than, say, illegal immigration, or abortion, or gay marriage...

I agree, but in this case I would prefer to discuss where the various candidates stand on Iraq, and how that stand changed over time, if at all. Reiterating the Bush administration's mistakes seems unhelpful in this thread, because nobody in the Bush administration is running for president. I'll follow Bill's example and drop out of this thread until you've finished discussing how the Bush administration did on Iraq.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 01:51 am
May I point out that OB has brought this upon himself by arguing, on a forum with lots of posters with years-long records of being against the war, that being against the war is very nice and fluffy in hindsight?

And, going back, I see that the discussion that preceded that argument was a pages-long back and forth about whether people were actually capable of reading the Constitution or not. Maybe 8 pages or so. (And before that, the topic was Clinton's BJ.)

Anyways, let's try to tie all of this together - the discussion about the Constitution, the Iraq War and the Republican candidates - and get back on topic.

This is from Ron Paul's "Texas Straight Talk", from October 7, 2002:


Ron Paul wrote:
Congress Becomes Irrelevant in the War Debate

Last week, during a hearing in the House International Relations committee, I attempted to force the committee to follow the Constitution and vote to declare war with Iraq. The language of Article I, section 8, is quite clear: only Congress has the authority to declare war. Yet Congress in general, and the committee in particular, have done everything possible to avoid making such a declaration. Why? Because members lack the political courage to call an invasion of Iraq what it really is- a war- and vote yes or no on the wisdom of such a war. Congress would rather give up its most important authorized power to the President and the UN than risk losing an election later if the war goes badly. There is always congressional "support" for a popular war, but the politicians want room to maneuver if the public later changes its mind. So members take half steps, supporting confusingly worded "authorizations" that they can back away from easily if necessary.

[...]

When Congress issued clear declarations of war against Japan and Germany during World War II, the nation was committed and victory was achieved. When Congress shirks its duty and avoids declaring war, as with Korea, and Vietnam, the nation is less committed and the goals are less clear. No lives should be lost in Iraq unless Congress expresses the clear will of the American people and votes yes or no on a declaration of war.


(source: http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2002/tst100702.htm)


Interesting, innit? And apparently, exactly this seems to disqualify him as presidential material in the eyes of many conservatives. One of the often-repeated charges is that he really is a Libertarian, and merely using the GOP to further his own career. Sneaky bastard.

So, in the light of this: what do you, Thomas, think about ol' Ron? Would you describe him as a Libertarian?

And to the conservatives here: does he have any chance at all?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 09:55 am
Interesting article in today's paper about McCain losing his cool again with another Senator. His hothead reputation isn't good for his campaign to become president. Makes one wonder why he continues to get support?
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 04:35 am
Quote:
Fred Thompson Ends Fund That Paid $178,000 to Son
May 22, 2007 11:11 AM

Avni Patel Reports:

Former Tennessee Senator and potential Republican presidential candidate Fred Thompson has shut down a political action committee that paid out more money to his son than it did in political donations.

Federal Election Commission records analyzed by the Blotter on ABCNews.com show Thompson's committee paid $178,000 to his son's political consulting firm, Daniel Thompson Associates, since 2003.

In contrast, the committee made only $66,700 in contributions to other campaigns and political committees in the four years since Thompson retired from the Senate.

The payments to Thompson's son were described as for management and consulting services.

While it is not unusual for members of Congress to hire family members to work on their campaigns, the high payments to Thompson's son's consulting business deserve close scrutiny, according to Sheila Krumholz, executive director of the Center for Responsive Politics.

"It raises eyebrows and calls into question whether this is self-dealing," says Krumholz .

Click Here for Full Blotter Coverage.

Contacted at his Nashville, Tenn., political consulting business, Daniel Thompson told ABC News he couldn't talk because he was "about to leave for a business trip" and referred all questions to a spokesman for his father, who did not return calls from ABC News.

When Thompson left the Senate in 2002, he converted more than $370,000 in leftover campaign funds into a "leadership PAC," which allowed him to contribute to other politicians at a $5,000 limit and pay for a variety of other expenses, including travel and consulting services.

Krumholz says retired lawmakers, like Thompson, often keep leadership PACs as a "slush fund" to help them set the stage for a run for higher office.

"Often it is simply a way to keep their foot in the door and keep them in the spotlight," says Krumholz.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/05/fred_thompson_e.html
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