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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 03:51 pm
nimh, How many times did you kick yourself? LOL
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 03:55 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
KW, don't hold your breath waiting for an admission that she was wrong.

Quote:
Foxfyre and others of her ilk are not going to deal with what Rudy did in public to his wife because it is plain indefensible. So they put a full court press on to try to make the media the issue, not Rudy.

KW is largely a one man gang trying to make this a an interesting dig. It isn't. I care no more about Giuliani's philandering than Clinton or Kennedy's... and virtually everyone I know who despised or despises Clinton related to it are reacting to the disobeying the Supreme Court of our land and lying to a Grand Jury about it. This quote exhibits KW's fixation with personal lives that are not shared by many:
Quote:
Eight years of nonstop Republican whining and hollering about Bill and Monica. Eight years of GOP pretending to be the party of morality, Clinton being Exhibit Number One. Eight years of "thoughtful analysis" about how Clinton simply cannot be considered an effective leader, considering the character flaws exposed by the Monica affair. Eight years of nonstop Republican goody-goodyism.
Back in the real world; "Eight years of nonstop Republican whining" about Clinton had less to do with Monica than it did with Lying about it and the perception that he let global problems fester. Meanwhile, polls across the Country thought the Monica focus was counterproductive (though many remained appalled by the disrespect for the Courts) and proved it by re-electing Clinton. Such an idiotic line of sabotage didn't work for the G.O.P., so what makes you think it will be any more effective for the Democrats?

Too few people share your fixation, KW; I suspect because most people consider sexual behavior largely irrelevant in the first place. Good luck trying to convince the masses they should care more about Giuliani's Private affairs than they should about things that actually matter. Thus far; the polls reflect no such thing.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:00 pm
nimh wrote:
And kudos to Keltic for doing the post-by-post analysis of the mechanism at work here.. but, done that been there. In fact, kind of grateful that someone else is doing it, so I wont have to anymore.

From experience tho, I wanna counsel: keep it up so long you're actually still enjoying yourself, but if you're not, by all means, do something else - its good that mechanisms are exposed, debunked etc - but you dont wanna be kicking yourself later for time better spent otherwise.


Kudos for taking it out of context and misrepresenting it? I suppose in your mind that is a good thing to do. I wouldn't expect any less of you.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:01 pm
Quote:
Such an idiotic line of sabotage didn't work for the G.O.P., so what makes you think it will be any more effective for the Democrats?


Because it won't be the Dems doing it, it will be your fellow GOP members who will trot out each and everything they can find during the killer primary season. Get ready!

I saw the poll showing the Fundie support for Guiliani in the other thread; I don't find it very compelling, as your fellow attack dogs haven't really started to highlight what a scumbag Guliani is in his private life.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:02 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
And kudos to Keltic for doing the post-by-post analysis of the mechanism at work here.. but, done that been there. In fact, kind of grateful that someone else is doing it, so I wont have to anymore.

From experience tho, I wanna counsel: keep it up so long you're actually still enjoying yourself, but if you're not, by all means, do something else - its good that mechanisms are exposed, debunked etc - but you dont wanna be kicking yourself later for time better spent otherwise.


Kudos for taking it out of context and misrepresenting it? I suppose in your mind that is a good thing to do. I wouldn't expect any less of you.


NO criticism of anything you have written has ever been taken in context or represented correctly, ever, according to you, Fox.

You're the boy (well, girl) who cried wolf. Times ten.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:33 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Such an idiotic line of sabotage didn't work for the G.O.P., so what makes you think it will be any more effective for the Democrats?


Because it won't be the Dems doing it, it will be your fellow GOP members who will trot out each and everything they can find during the killer primary season. Get ready!
Pssst. It wasn't the Dems doing it to Clinton, either, and it failed miserably... and I'm hardly a member of the GOP.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:35 pm
ehBeth wrote:
New York Mag recently had a good feature on Mr. Giuliani

http://nymag.com/news/features/28517/

Quote:
Rudy Tuesday
It's a long way from 9/11/01 to 11/04/08. New Yorkers may be surprised by how far Rudy Giuliani has come already. But that's only because we know him.


Quote:
It may sound preposterous to a Rudy-savvy New Yorker. But in this ballroom full of lock-jawed Wasps, it sounds like presidential salvation.



bethie-baby
Thankyou! That's a wonderful piece. Really close to the way I'm thinking about the fellow and the response to him so far. One hilarious line I just bumped into from Jimmy Breslin (gawd, new yorkers can be funny)...
Quote:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:43 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
And kudos to Keltic for doing the post-by-post analysis of the mechanism at work here.. but, done that been there. In fact, kind of grateful that someone else is doing it, so I wont have to anymore.

From experience tho, I wanna counsel: keep it up so long you're actually still enjoying yourself, but if you're not, by all means, do something else - its good that mechanisms are exposed, debunked etc - but you dont wanna be kicking yourself later for time better spent otherwise.


Kudos for taking it out of context and misrepresenting it? I suppose in your mind that is a good thing to do. I wouldn't expect any less of you.


NO criticism of anything you have written has ever been taken in context or represented correctly, ever, according to you, Fox.

You're the boy (well, girl) who cried wolf. Times ten.

Cycloptichorn


And you got it wrong. Again. But I compliment you on your alertness for any opportunity to pile on.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 04:48 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
And kudos to Keltic for doing the post-by-post analysis of the mechanism at work here.. but, done that been there. In fact, kind of grateful that someone else is doing it, so I wont have to anymore.

From experience tho, I wanna counsel: keep it up so long you're actually still enjoying yourself, but if you're not, by all means, do something else - its good that mechanisms are exposed, debunked etc - but you dont wanna be kicking yourself later for time better spent otherwise.


Kudos for taking it out of context and misrepresenting it? I suppose in your mind that is a good thing to do. I wouldn't expect any less of you.


NO criticism of anything you have written has ever been taken in context or represented correctly, ever, according to you, Fox.

You're the boy (well, girl) who cried wolf. Times ten.

Cycloptichorn


And you got it wrong. Again. But I compliment you on your alertness for any opportunity to pile on.


I miss them left and right, only to sit around shaking my head later on at my loss. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, Fox - you aren't stalked here. You just provide countless opportunities. For every single one I take, there are ten that I ignore.

I'm sure you're a very nice person; but your argumentation stinks and your stubborn refusal to either admit that fact or do any sort of work to change it doesn't help.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 05:00 pm
Great article, Beth, thanks for posting it.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:05 pm
I hope Rudy tells em to **** off.

The day of the "oooh, he's divorced" **** is over.

How does anybody expect Hillary Clinton to stand up to China or anybody when her own husband made a global fool of her--and she just walked around with a pinched expression for a couple of weeks.

I wonder if the A2K contingent is as concerned about Obama's cocaine past as they were Bush's...? You know, the madrassas chanting is a bit perplexing as well.....

Is this really how we want to handle politics this year? Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:08 pm
Lash wrote:
I hope Rudy tells em to **** off.

The day of the "oooh, he's divorced" **** is over.

How does anybody expect Hillary Clinton to stand up to China or anybody when her own husband made a global fool of her--and she just walked around with a pinched expression for a couple of weeks.

I wonder if the A2K contingent is as concerned about Obama's cocaine past as they were Bush's...? You know, the madrassas chanting is a bit perplexing as well.....

Is this really how we want to handle politics this year? Laughing


Don't kid yourself and expect it to be any different.

It isn't that Guiliani is divorced, it's that he went out of his way to make a fool out of his wife and publicly shame her.

Now, I don't care if the guy is a scumbag, though it is clear that he is; I don't believe that people's private lives have much to do with their public lives. But there are a lot of voters who do. Add in a dress, gay roomies, support for abortion, and you have a real winner of a candidate.

Don't put him up on a pedestal, Lash. He's nothing more than the best of a set of bad options on your side.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:12 pm
Listen, I know he's faulted. You needn't waste worries of pedestals on me--though your buds on the Obama thread may need you. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:14 pm
Lash wrote:
Listen, I know he's faulted. You needn't waste worries of pedestals on me--though your buds on the Obama thread may need you. Laughing


He's the best of a bad lot as well. Though I will say that he has qualities that none of the other candidates have and a cleaner record by far.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:15 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
And kudos to Keltic for doing the post-by-post analysis of the mechanism at work here.. but, done that been there. In fact, kind of grateful that someone else is doing it, so I wont have to anymore.

From experience tho, I wanna counsel: keep it up so long you're actually still enjoying yourself, but if you're not, by all means, do something else - its good that mechanisms are exposed, debunked etc - but you dont wanna be kicking yourself later for time better spent otherwise.


Kudos for taking it out of context and misrepresenting it? I suppose in your mind that is a good thing to do. I wouldn't expect any less of you.


NO criticism of anything you have written has ever been taken in context or represented correctly, ever, according to you, Fox.

You're the boy (well, girl) who cried wolf. Times ten.

Cycloptichorn


And you got it wrong. Again. But I compliment you on your alertness for any opportunity to pile on.


I miss them left and right, only to sit around shaking my head later on at my loss. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, Fox - you aren't stalked here. You just provide countless opportunities. For every single one I take, there are ten that I ignore.

I'm sure you're a very nice person; but your argumentation stinks and your stubborn refusal to either admit that fact or do any sort of work to change it doesn't help.

Cycloptichorn


I haven't used the word stalked either so you got that wrong too. I don't mind at all debating the issues or having it explained to me how I am wrong. But you'll understand if petty sniping is not seen as good debate technique to me and comes across as really lame. If you don't like my argumentation please feel free to scroll right over my posts. That's what I do with others whose argumentation stinks.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:17 pm
Oh?

For the record, I don't think Obama is perfect. I don't think I've ever said he's perfect.

He also hasn't spent any time in a madrassa -- that was debunked long ago.

Cocaine, yep. He tried it. Didn't like it. Brought it up himself, also long ago (much longer ago, in fact).

Anyway, while I think Rudy handled the divorce terribly and was needlessly cruel to Donna Hanover and his kids, those things are not why I am against him as a presidential candidate.

ehBeth's article pretty handily lays out the reasons I am.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:24 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
nimh wrote:
And kudos to Keltic for doing the post-by-post analysis of the mechanism at work here.. but, done that been there. In fact, kind of grateful that someone else is doing it, so I wont have to anymore.

From experience tho, I wanna counsel: keep it up so long you're actually still enjoying yourself, but if you're not, by all means, do something else - its good that mechanisms are exposed, debunked etc - but you dont wanna be kicking yourself later for time better spent otherwise.


Kudos for taking it out of context and misrepresenting it? I suppose in your mind that is a good thing to do. I wouldn't expect any less of you.


NO criticism of anything you have written has ever been taken in context or represented correctly, ever, according to you, Fox.

You're the boy (well, girl) who cried wolf. Times ten.

Cycloptichorn


And you got it wrong. Again. But I compliment you on your alertness for any opportunity to pile on.


I miss them left and right, only to sit around shaking my head later on at my loss. Rolling Eyes

Seriously, Fox - you aren't stalked here. You just provide countless opportunities. For every single one I take, there are ten that I ignore.

I'm sure you're a very nice person; but your argumentation stinks and your stubborn refusal to either admit that fact or do any sort of work to change it doesn't help.

Cycloptichorn


I haven't used the word stalked either so you got that wrong too. I don't mind at all debating the issues or having it explained to me how I am wrong. But you'll understand if petty sniping is not seen as good debate technique to me and comes across as really lame. If you don't like my argumentation please feel free to scroll right over my posts. That's what I do with others whose argumentation stinks.


That's nice that you do that; I engage them and show them the error of their ways. You must be a better person than I overall.

A careful review of your posting history will show that confrontations generally follow the same pattern -

1, you say something absolutely ridiculous and unsupportable by fact or logic.

2, others try to point this out to you - and generally with no personal invective whatsoever at this point.

3, you deny that you did anything wrong, and resort to claiming that you were -

- misquoted
- misunderstood
- misrepresented
- taken out of context

4, it is generally shown to you that none of these things are in fact true using both facts and sound logic. KW did exactly that in this thread when he reposted actual snippets of your argument.

5, you claim that you're being personally attacked and either withdraw from the conversation or attack others for attacking you.

It's the same pattern over and over. Face it, Fox. You like to toss bombs in conversation without anything to actually back them up other than your opinion or maybe an anecdote or two about people you personally know. You don't appreciate when others question what you say. You have no intention of ever admitting that you are wrong on an issue, no matter how good the logic is showing that you are or how poor your own argumentation is. You respond by attacking anyone who attacks you. You don't read others' evidence and in many cases just refuse to follow their links b/c you don't agree with the ideology of the websites. Eventually you claim that you are being ganged up on and persecuted. I could probably find ten instances of this same conversational pattern in the last two months alone.

What would you say about someone who consistently displays such behaviors? I'll tell you what I would say. I would say that their argumentation stinks and that they should work harder at making it better, if they expect to be taken seriously.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:35 pm
All the above sounds vaguely familiar.

...

I'm still sure that Foxy is a very nice person.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:40 pm
Well Foxy can identify a jerk when she sees one though. So maybe I'm not so nice.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2007 06:40 pm
I would suggest people not believe everything they hear in the tabloids. How on earth would one know who did what to whom in a divorce where they didn't personally know either of the people involved?

...and my blurb about Obama is on par with Mussolini et al... It gets stupid--Those who are taking it there should prepare to be met there...

It's really a waste.
0 Replies
 
 

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