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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 May, 2006 05:16 pm
Trust is huge alright. At least you know what you are getting, hopefully. Thanks for explaining, but it still seems very conflicting. If I were you, I would hold hope for the same trustworthy personality and straight forwardness - PLUS conservatism.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 May, 2006 05:20 pm
okie, there's a term for the way you throw around "socialist" to describe politicians you don't like: It's called red-baiting, and it has a long and inglorious tradition in this country.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 May, 2006 10:14 pm
Sorry to be a little too graphic for your tastes. Just look at the history of some of the people in politics now, going back to the 60's, check the universities where they studied, observe their current apparent affections and sympathies with communist leaders. Lets just say it causes red flags. And why are they often so antagonistic with business and free enterprise, and so in favor of government fixes for virtually everything. Then listen to buzzwords, like working class, the people, it takes a village, greedy multi-national corporations, imperialists, blah, blah, blah, what conclusions or suspicions are we susposed to draw?

Lets just say a healthy suspicion of government and being on the lookout is a good idea.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2006 02:24 am
Quote:
And why are they often so antagonistic with business and free enterprise


Becuase a Business or Corporation acts with the same rights as a citizen without the moral responsibilities.

The inherent purpose of a company is to make money. Nothing wrong with that, per se. But 'making money' has become for a great many companies far more important than anything else; more important than treating their employees right, more important than following the law, more important than not polluting, more important than doing the right thing.

And there are laws which exacerbate this problem, Due Dilligence laws. If I am an investor in Okie, inc., which you are the president and CEO of; and if you take an action which provides me with a lower return on a share of stock which I own - say, you decide to buy the T-shirts that our company sells from America instead of from China, which is far cheaper - then I can sue you for failing to do your job, ie, provide the shareholder with the highest possible ROI, or return on investment.

You can see what the inevitable result of this is; even if CEOs want to do the right thing, they often cannot, because they are under risk of losing their job and being sued by shareholders for not providing the largest possible return.

All of this only adds to one of the largest problems in our society - greed and the concept that makiing money transcends all other social responsibility. This leads to companies which pollute, which cheat on taxes, which lie to shareholders and the public, which bribe our government in order to relax regulations. Companies which provide the cheapest possible product in order to maximize profits.

The funny thing about people is, they tend to believe that some things in life aren't a mix of good and bad. Corporations and Companies have led to great advances in our society, much good; but they also have lead to much bad in our society, through their lack of morality applied to their decisions. What you call 'free enterprise' is rarely so; many companies use everything in their power to limit their competition legally and illegally, to decieve investors and investigators, to screw over every single employee that they have in order to make higher profits for the executives and large stockholders.

Are all companies this way? Of course not! But far too many act in this fashion. And they use their profits to keep their activities secret, to hide them, to bribe lawmakers, to keep from being regulated. It bears watching.

That's why Democrats harp on Big Business so often; they have proven themselves so unreliable in the past, that they simply cannot be trusted to act in a manner that is beneficial to society, instead of beneficial to their investors. This has impact in financial, social, and environmental areas of our lives, all of us, and keeping an eye on Big Business is one of the most important things that we can do as a society.

Cycloptichorn

ps

Quote:
check the universities where they studied, observe their current apparent affections and sympathies with communist leaders


This is BS, completely. An attempt by you to demonize higher learning and claim that those who attempt to study at a high level are somehow morally damaged by doing so. I really don't expect such tripe from someone who so often posts intelligently.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2006 03:10 am
okie wrote:
Sorry to be a little too graphic for your tastes. Just look at the history of some of the people in politics now, going back to the 60's, check the universities where they studied, observe their current apparent affections and sympathies with communist leaders. Lets just say it causes red flags.

What nonsense. Re "the history of some of the people in politics now, going back to the 60's", you'll find some notable former Trotskyites (like, actual former communists) in the neoconservative PNAC ranks, so that obviously doesnt say much. "The universities where they studied"? Studying at university X makes you a socialist? Bull. "Observe their current apparent sympathies with communist leaders"? Which Democrats have you noticed expressing sympathy with Castro, Kim Jong-Il , Khadafi? None. Three times nonsense.

okie wrote:
Then listen to buzzwords, like working class, the people, it takes a village, greedy multi-national corporations, imperialists

"It takes a village" is a socialist concept? Only socialists talk about "the people"? Huh?

Now "imperialists", there's a term I havent heard any noted American politician to the right of Nader use since I was in high school...
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2006 06:29 am
nimh wrote:
Which Democrats have you noticed expressing sympathy with Castro, Kim Jong-Il , Khadafi? None. Three times nonsense.


I'm assuredly not aligning with anyone because I've only read this page, but when those three are criticised, and a Democrat here--or anyone--immediately begins criticizing the US in rebuttal, it does seem very much like sympathy for Qaddafi, Kim Jong-Il...etc...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2006 06:41 am
Lash wrote:
I'm assuredly not aligning with anyone because I've only read this page, but when those three are criticised, and a Democrat here--or anyone--immediately begins criticizing the US in rebuttal, it does seem very much like sympathy for Qaddafi, Kim Jong-Il...etc...

Does it?

From what I've gotten, those discussions tend to go like this..

A: [Dictator X] is evil, he made that place a mess, his country should be invaded!
B: Ehm, hold on a sec - I think he's evil too, but its not like the US hasnt got some responsibility of its own in that mess, etc

Far as I can logically see, person B in that example conversation is not experssing "sympathy" for the dictator at all... I sure havent seen anyone here express any degree of agreement with Qadaffi or Kim Jong-Il..
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2006 08:26 am
Nimh writes
Quote:
Now "imperialists", there's a term I havent heard any noted American politician to the right of Nader use since I was in high school...


It lurks just below the surface of American psyche though and for a generation now has colored American politics in significant ways in the way we do war, economic policy, environmental policy, immigration policy, etc.

I am going to the post the following rather length essay in total as it will soon be archived and less accessible. Shelby Steele, one of my very favoritte writers on American social and political issues, has nailed the situation I believe and the resulting frustration so many Americans, especially conservative Americans, feel about their current leaders and the policies they implement.

Any leader who emerges who understands this and addresses that frustration and is willing to get past our 'imperlialistic guilt' will almost certainly capture the imagination of most of the people and will be elected. I don't know if we have one like that in the competition, but I keep hoping.

White Guilt and the Western Past
Why is America so delicate with the enemy?

BY SHELBY STEELE
Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

There is something rather odd in the way America has come to fight its wars since World War II.

For one thing, it is now unimaginable that we would use anything approaching the full measure of our military power (the nuclear option aside) in the wars we fight. And this seems only reasonable given the relative weakness of our Third World enemies in Vietnam and in the Middle East. But the fact is that we lost in Vietnam, and today, despite our vast power, we are only slogging along--if admirably--in Iraq against a hit-and-run insurgency that cannot stop us even as we seem unable to stop it. Yet no one--including, very likely, the insurgents themselves--believes that America lacks the raw power to defeat this insurgency if it wants to. So clearly it is America that determines the scale of this war. It is America, in fact, that fights so as to make a little room for an insurgency.

Certainly since Vietnam, America has increasingly practiced a policy of minimalism and restraint in war. And now this unacknowledged policy, which always makes a space for the enemy, has us in another long and rather passionless war against a weak enemy.

Why this new minimalism in war?

It began, I believe, in a late-20th-century event that transformed the world more profoundly than the collapse of communism: the world-wide collapse of white supremacy as a source of moral authority, political legitimacy and even sovereignty. This idea had organized the entire world, divided up its resources, imposed the nation-state system across the globe, and delivered the majority of the world's population into servitude and oppression. After World War II, revolutions across the globe, from India to Algeria and from Indonesia to the American civil rights revolution, defeated the authority inherent in white supremacy, if not the idea itself. And this defeat exacted a price: the West was left stigmatized by its sins. Today, the white West--like Germany after the Nazi defeat--lives in a kind of secular penitence in which the slightest echo of past sins brings down withering condemnation. There is now a cloud over white skin where there once was unquestioned authority.

I call this white guilt not because it is a guilt of conscience but because people stigmatized with moral crimes--here racism and imperialism--lack moral authority and so act guiltily whether they feel guilt or not.
They struggle, above all else, to dissociate themselves from the past sins they are stigmatized with. When they behave in ways that invoke the memory of those sins, they must labor to prove that they have not relapsed into their group's former sinfulness. So when America--the greatest embodiment of Western power--goes to war in Third World Iraq, it must also labor to dissociate that action from the great Western sin of imperialism. Thus, in Iraq we are in two wars, one against an insurgency and another against the past--two fronts, two victories to win, one military, the other a victory of dissociation.

The collapse of white supremacy--and the resulting white guilt--introduced a new mechanism of power into the world: stigmatization with the evil of the Western past. And this stigmatization is power because it affects the terms of legitimacy for Western nations and for their actions in the world. In Iraq, America is fighting as much for the legitimacy of its war effort as for victory in war. In fact, legitimacy may be the more important goal. If a military victory makes us look like an imperialist nation bent on occupying and raping the resources of a poor brown nation, then victory would mean less because it would have no legitimacy. Europe would scorn. Conversely, if America suffered a military loss in Iraq but in so doing dispelled the imperialist stigma, the loss would be seen as a necessary sacrifice made to restore our nation's legitimacy. Europe's halls of internationalism would suddenly open to us.

Because dissociation from the racist and imperialist stigma is so tied to legitimacy in this age of white guilt, America's act of going to war can have legitimacy only if it seems to be an act of social work--something that uplifts and transforms the poor brown nation (thus dissociating us from the white exploitations of old). So our war effort in Iraq is shrouded in a new language of social work in which democracy is cast as an instrument of social transformation bringing new institutions, new relations between men and women, new ideas of individual autonomy, new and more open forms of education, new ways of overcoming poverty--war as the Great Society.

This does not mean that President Bush is insincere in his desire to bring democracy to Iraq, nor is it to say that democracy won't ultimately be socially transformative in Iraq. It's just that today the United States cannot go to war in the Third World simply to defeat a dangerous enemy.
White guilt makes our Third World enemies into colored victims, people whose problems--even the tyrannies they live under--were created by the historical disruptions and injustices of the white West. We must "understand" and pity our enemy even as we fight him. And, though Islamic extremism is one of the most pernicious forms of evil opportunism that has ever existed, we have felt compelled to fight it with an almost managerial minimalism that shows us to be beyond the passions of war--and thus well dissociated from the avariciousness of the white supremacist past.

Anti-Americanism, whether in Europe or on the American left, works by the mechanism of white guilt. It stigmatizes America with all the imperialistic and racist ugliness of the white Western past so that America becomes a kind of straw man, a construct of Western sin. (The Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo prisons were the focus of such stigmatization campaigns.) Once the stigma is in place, one need only be anti-American in order to be "good," in order to have an automatic moral legitimacy and power in relation to America. (People as seemingly disparate as President Jacques Chirac and the Rev. Al Sharpton are devoted pursuers of the moral high ground to be had in anti-Americanism.) This formula is the most dependable source of power for today's international left. Virtue and power by mere anti-Americanism. And it is all the more appealing since, unlike real virtues, it requires no sacrifice or effort--only outrage at every slight echo of the imperialist past.

Today words like "power" and "victory" are so stigmatized with Western sin that, in many quarters, it is politically incorrect even to utter them. For the West, "might" can never be right. And victory, when won by the West against a Third World enemy, is always oppression. But, in reality, military victory is also the victory of one idea and the defeat of another. Only American victory in Iraq defeats the idea of Islamic extremism. But in today's atmosphere of Western contrition, it is impolitic to say so.

America and the broader West are now going through a rather tender era, a time when Western societies have very little defense against the moral accusations that come from their own left wings and from those vast stretches of nonwhite humanity that were once so disregarded.
Europeans are utterly confounded by the swelling Muslim populations in their midst. America has run from its own mounting immigration problem for decades, and even today, after finally taking up the issue, our government seems entirely flummoxed. White guilt is a vacuum of moral authority visited on the present by the shames of the past. In the abstract it seems a slight thing, almost irrelevant, an unconvincing proposition. Yet a society as enormously powerful as America lacks the authority to ask its most brilliant, wealthy and superbly educated minority students to compete freely for college admission with poor whites who lack all these things. Just can't do it.

Whether the problem is race relations, education, immigration or war, white guilt imposes so much minimalism and restraint that our worst problems tend to linger and deepen. Our leaders work within a double bind. If they do what is truly necessary to solve a problem--win a war, fix immigration--they lose legitimacy.

To maintain their legitimacy, they practice the minimalism that makes problems linger. What but minimalism is left when you are running from stigmatization as a "unilateralist cowboy"? And where is the will to truly regulate the southern border when those who ask for this are slimed as bigots? This is how white guilt defines what is possible in America. You go at a problem until you meet stigmatization, then you retreat into minimalism.

Possibly white guilt's worst effect is that it does not permit whites--and nonwhites--to appreciate something extraordinary: the fact that whites in America, and even elsewhere in the West, have achieved a truly remarkable moral transformation. One is forbidden to speak thus, but it is simply true. There are no serious advocates of white supremacy in America today, because whites see this idea as morally repugnant. If there is still the odd white bigot out there surviving past his time, there are millions of whites who only feel goodwill toward minorities.

This is a fact that must be integrated into our public life--absorbed as new history--so that America can once again feel the moral authority to seriously tackle its most profound problems. Then, if we decide to go to war, it can be with enough ferocity to win.

Mr. Steele, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, is author, most recently, of "White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era," published this week by HarperCollins.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008318
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2006 08:34 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Nimh writes
Quote:
Now "imperialists", there's a term I havent heard any noted American politician to the right of Nader use since I was in high school...

It lurks just below the surface of American psyche though and for a generation now has colored American politics in significant ways in the way we do war, economic policy, environmental policy, immigration policy, etc.

Ah, it "lurks below the surface", a variety of Okie's argument earlier. No, prominent politicians didnt actually say it, but I just know that they really do mean it, when they talk of things that sound vaguely like it.

Of course, when a poster on the opposite side suggests that some politicians' rhetorics represent or are inspired by, say, racism, even if they dont use the accompanying words explicitly, it evokes indignation; how dare he project such stuff, make such accusations without literal proof!

Personally, I dont think there's anything wrong with identifying imperialisms ... but then I'm no US politician ...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 May, 2006 09:58 am
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Nimh writes
Quote:
Now "imperialists", there's a term I havent heard any noted American politician to the right of Nader use since I was in high school...

It lurks just below the surface of American psyche though and for a generation now has colored American politics in significant ways in the way we do war, economic policy, environmental policy, immigration policy, etc.

Ah, it "lurks below the surface", a variety of Okie's argument earlier. No, prominent politicians didnt actually say it, but I just know that they really do mean it, when they talk of things that sound vaguely like it.

Of course, when a poster on the opposite side suggests that some politicians' rhetorics represent or are inspired by, say, racism, even if they dont use the accompanying words explicitly, it evokes indignation; how dare he project such stuff, make such accusations without literal proof!

Personally, I dont think there's anything wrong with identifying imperialisms ... but then I'm no US politician ...


The whole point of Steele's essay, however, is to illustrate how Americans act guilty even when they are not. Polticial correctness, the implied phrase, innuendo, suggestion of bigotry, racism, selifshness, imperialism, etc., all are ingrained into the fabric of the social and political scene because some on the Left have been successful in making us think we should somehow be ashamed of who we are and what we are about. And that is hampering our ability to do the right thing even when the right thing is the only thing that will achieve a stated goal.

JFK and Reagan were not perfect presidents by any means, but both had their priorities mostly straight, and the No #1 strength of both was in instilling a pride and sense of purpose and 'can do' in the people, something no leader has dared to do since.

That's what I want in a leader again.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 May, 2006 07:46 pm
Lash wrote:
nimh wrote:
Which Democrats have you noticed expressing sympathy with Castro, Kim Jong-Il , Khadafi? None. Three times nonsense.


I'm assuredly not aligning with anyone because I've only read this page, but when those three are criticised, and a Democrat here--or anyone--immediately begins criticizing the US in rebuttal, it does seem very much like sympathy for Qaddafi, Kim Jong-Il...etc...


Whenever I hear someone changing the subject from Person A, and casting some sort of blame on someone else, whether personal or political, it invariably strikes me as a bit of a defense for Person A.

That doesn't prove anything, but it is a sentiment shared by a chunk of people. It smells like a defense, via subject changing, equivocating and dilution.

Smile
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 05:15 pm
There's been some talk about George Allen on this thread, as the possible flag-bearer for the conservative wing of the Republicans, if the race does otherwise become a contest between a moderate-minded Republican (Giuliani) and an independent-minded one (McCain).

Now, the New Republic has a lengthy article about the man, focusing on his apparent affinity for the Confederate past:

TNR: George Allen's Flag Fetish

(You may have to be registered to get to see that article in full.)

The first half of the article focuses on George Allen's suggested obsession with the Confederate flag. The diligence with which the article identifies every occasion on which Allen either sported, showed or talking approvingly of the Confederate flag seems, to a non-American like me, a bit of an obsession itself. But I'm probably missing a cultural sensitivity on this topic, as a foreigner.

The bottom line is that, from the Confederate flag pin on his senior class photo to the Confederate flags on the bumpers of his UVA Law School days' pickup truck to the Confederate flag in his living room in the 80s to the one folded on a bookcase behind him in his first campaign ad in his 1993 race for Governor, "Allen has either displayed the flag [..] or expressed his enthusiastic approval of the emblem from approximately 1967 to 2000". And that, in turn, makes him seem less than honest when, recently again, he brushes away questions on the matter by claiming that it's all just part of his flag collection: "I have flags from many countries, many states".

Awright. There's more, though:

Quote:
In 1995, according to The Washington Post, Allen "referred to his neighboring state as 'the counties that call themselves West Virginia,' evoking the old argument that their decision to secede and stay with the Union was illegal." In 1995, 1996, and 1997, Allen issued a proclamation drafted by the Sons of Confederate Veterans celebrating April as Confederate History and Heritage Month. The document made no mention of slavery. His successor, Republican Governor James Gilmore, repudiated Allen's proclamation and wrote a more balanced version that denounced slavery. Under educational guidelines proposed by Allen's administration, which were revised after an uproar, students would have been taught that slaves were "settlers."

TheCollegian, a conservative blogger at Redstate.com, who volunteered for Allen himself in '93, notes about this:

Quote:
"George Allen did not simply adopt an affection for the South, but the South at a certain time: a time when it was fighting to keep slavery legal. Even this would be ok if he had some family tie to the region at that time, but he doesn't. I find that to be disturbing."

Question is - apart from further putting off people like, say, me, who would be against him in any case - will it hurt Allen if this thing of his becomes a campaign issue? Will there be more conservatives like that blogger, for whom Allen's adoptive Confederate thing would be a reason to jump off any Allen bandwagon?

Intriguingly - also in the questions it raises about the nature of Republican support - some apparently think it will do the very opposite:

Quote:
a second view [..] is best expressed to me by Stevens, now a consultant to John McCain. He argues strenuously that I should not write a piece about Allen and the Confederate flag. He says it would be unfair to Allen. But, when I explain Allen's record on the issue, he makes another argument that has nothing to do with fairness, and I figure out why he is so forceful. "Well, you also realize you're getting him votes for the primary, right?" Stevens says, alluding to key states in the South. He raises his voice to a shout: "You're getting him votes! Big time!"
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 07:45 pm
It's always fascinating to me when the Left wingnuts--not you necessarily Nimh, but rather the people already attacking Allen--start treating somebody like they are already announced as a candidate. That tells me that these people are worried that somebody might throw their hat in the ring and want to head him off at the pass very quickly. So they start the personal smear, innuendo, and suggestions, and if they can tar him as a racist, they might be able to keep him from running at all.

As this issue has not come up in any serious ways during his campaigns for his successful governorship and subsequently as a Senator, I presume the Confederate flag smear will not be too difficult to expose for what it most likely is; i.e. just another gimmick in the politics of personal destruction.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2006 07:58 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
It's always fascinating to me when the Left wingnuts--not you necessarily Nimh, but rather the people already attacking Allen--start treating somebody like they are already announced as a candidate. That tells me that these people are worried that somebody might throw their hat in the ring and want to head him off at the pass very quickly.

Hmmm ... I dont think that there's any politician who's been mentioned as probable candidate who's not been covered in myriad articles ... Allen, in fact, probably less so than McCain, Giuliani, Rice, Warner, Frist, Feingold and, of course, Hillary - most of whom have also not (yet) announced they're going to run.

My take on Allen: from the little I've read (here, for example), he seems clearly more reprehensible, to the likes of me, than the Republicans currently leading the polls - worse than Rice and definitely worse than McCain or Giuliani.

BUT - if a guy with his views does end winning, any Democrat challenger is going to have a lot better chance than if (s)he were having to run against McCain or Giuliani ... so strategically speaking, an Allen victory in the primaries might actually be good for the Democrats.

Like, against someone like Allen - or Frist, for that matter - Hillary might actually stand a chance, of grabbing some of the political center, whereas against Giuliani or McCain she'd be dead in the water.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 06:11 am
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
It's always fascinating to me when the Left wingnuts--not you necessarily Nimh, but rather the people already attacking Allen--start treating somebody like they are already announced as a candidate. That tells me that these people are worried that somebody might throw their hat in the ring and want to head him off at the pass very quickly.

Hmmm ... I dont think that there's any politician who's been mentioned as probable candidate who's not been covered in myriad articles ... Allen, in fact, probably less so than McCain, Giuliani, Rice, Warner, Frist, Feingold and, of course, Hillary - most of whom have also not (yet) announced they're going to run.

My take on Allen: from the little I've read (here, for example), he seems clearly more reprehensible, to the likes of me, than the Republicans currently leading the polls - worse than Rice and definitely worse than McCain or Giuliani.

BUT - if a guy with his views does end winning, any Democrat challenger is going to have a lot better chance than if (s)he were having to run against McCain or Giuliani ... so strategically speaking, an Allen victory in the primaries might actually be good for the Democrats.

Like, against someone like Allen - or Frist, for that matter - Hillary might actually stand a chance, of grabbing some of the political center, whereas against Giuliani or McCain she'd be dead in the water.


I don't really think so. Both McCain and Guiliani have their admirers and will be attractive to a certain segment of course, and neither have horns or tails and probably no completely damning skeletons in their closets. Both are more old style big government Democrats, however, than true Republicans and neither would ever pass muster as Reagan conservatives. While Hillary would certainly be considered unaccceptable (and untrustworthy) to Conservatives, McCain particularly has earned a reputation of political expediency with an unattractive slickness built in that will likely sink him with the conservative side of the party. One example is in his campaign reform initiative in which he conveniently exempted some special groups such as the Indian tribes who provide a large portion of his own campaign contributions. What reforms that were implemented did nothing to solve the problems but rather ran them deeper into special interest groups and helped incumbants, but he claims the glory anyway. He is seen as an opportunist and not really a man of conviction by many in the party.

Allen on the other hand is talking a very good game, and, if he does become a candidate and convinces conservatives he is for real, he will be very attractive. A dark horse in either party has a tough time getting through the primary system these days, however. He is not a household name yet and neither party has an efficient machine in place to force through a candidate without name recognition. But many conservatives are fed up with Republicans who only pretend to be conservatives but do not behave or vote conservative, and they are definitely looking for a champion.

What specifically offends you about Allen?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 May, 2006 07:13 am
It is constructive I think how both McCain and Hillary are courting the very Rightwing territory both have damned in the past:

May 9, 2006, 11:11PM
Some strange bedfellows cozy up under the sheetsMORE HERE
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 May, 2006 10:25 am
To comment on George Allen and the confederate flag, didn't Howard Dean make some comment about getting the support of people with confederate flags on their pickup trucks?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/06/elec04.prez.dean.flag/

I would have to research it, but haven't many southern Democrats flown that flag until more recent years?

I am not from the South, but isn't the flag significant as denoting an area of the country as a historical icon, completely aside from the notion that it might support the beliefs of segregationists?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 06:06 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Allen on the other hand is talking a very good game, and, if he does become a candidate and convinces conservatives he is for real, he will be very attractive. [..] many conservatives are fed up with Republicans who only pretend to be conservatives but do not behave or vote conservative, and they are definitely looking for a champion.

Oh, I have no doubt that Allen would be attractive to the most conservative wing of the Republican Party.

In fact, you might remember that the whole incentive to this thread was my expectation that both the conservatives and the Bush-wing might well still try to find a candidate of their own, faced with the looming choice of McCain and Giuliani:

I wrote:
Do you think McCain or Giuliani would make it through the primaries? Do you think the rightwing of the Republicans will recruit and mobilise around one or two alternative candidates? Would McCain or Giuliani still make it then? And who could those alternative candidate(s) be?

My point was, rather, that it would be good for the Democrats if Allen would win the primaries. Any Democratic candidate we've seen mentioned prominently so far wouldn't seem to stand a chance against Giuliani and have a hard time against McCain - but someone apparently as hard-right partisan as Allen, who's been with the Bush admin practically all the way - now that would offer a much better chance.

He might, as you say, do well among the conservatives who think the Bush administration hasnt actually been conservative enough; but that is hardly where the mainstream of the vote is. Against someone like George Allen, a Democratic candidate would stand much better a chance than against Giuliani or McCain, who both have tremendous cross-appeal to Independents and even some Democrats.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 06:11 am
Here's a recent poll that would seem to strikingly underline my point.

It neatly illustrates both the cross-over appeal of Giuliani and McCain - and just how damaging it is right now to be associated with the Republicans' partisan, conservative wing and/or the Bush name.


http://pollingreport.com/images/FOX08.GIF

Even Hillary would easily trump someone associated with both the hard right and the Bush admin.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 06:44 am
This poll seems to underlines my point about where the mainstream of the vote currently is:

Code:USA Today/Gallup Poll. April 28-30, 2006.

"Do you think George W. Bush's political views are too conservative, about right, or too liberal?"

Too About Too
Conservative Right Liberal Unsure
% % % %

4/28-30/06 45 28 19 8

3/26-28/04 38 40 15 7
0 Replies
 
 

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McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
McCain lies - Discussion by nimh
The Case Against John McCain - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
 
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