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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 12:35 pm
The right wing-nuts do not understand (same as the left wing nuts) the needs of the electorate. They (both wing nuts) are selfish, self centered individuals who do not care about anything but their own ideology.

They also do not know the facts.

http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

That is what I call experience.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 12:37 pm
okie wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
McCain is one of the few honest, principled politicians left. That is his appeal. He does not toe the party line on every issue, but who wants a president that does? Isn't that one of the things that got Bush in trouble?

I do not understand the conservative outcry against McCain. It seems unproductive and out of step with the Republican party platform, which McCain supports. I guess he isn't far enough to the right for some folks, but now is not the time for a polarizing candidate. That is why the candidates are turning out as they are. People want a centrist President that can work with both parties in Congress to get the country back on it's feet.

Here is where you are dead wrong, McGentrix. I want the party line in terms of national security, immigration reform, economic issues, environmental nonsense, supreme court nominees, etc etc. Bipartisanship is a buzzword for compromise with worthless Democratic initiatives. Stabbing his own president and fellow Republicans in the back is not my brand of politics. You end up with McCain Feingold, worthless immigration bills, bad judge appointments, and all the rest.


Again, refresh yourself on the facts.

How did the 2 Supreme Court appointments turn out?

His immigration bill is not 100% but it does call for securing the boarder first. Blame Clinton and Bush for creating the mess the next President has to inherit.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 12:46 pm
Quote:
His immigration bill is not 100% but it does call for securing the boarder first. Blame Clinton and Bush for creating the mess the next President has to inherit.


It goes back alot farther then that.
IMHO, the blame belongs to Reagan and those in congress then.
It was that group that pushed for and got amnesty, therefore giving hope to millions of other illegal aliens that all they have to do is wait and the govt will give in.

Clinton and Bush did nothing to address the problem, so they share part of the blame.

The majority of the blame lies with Reagan.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 12:48 pm
McCain did vote against the Bush tax cuts and voted against making them permanent. His pledge to do so now therefore rings a bit hollow. He won Arizona last night but not by a resounding margin indicating the residual anger over that horrendous immigration bill that he supported. He has joined the ranks of the environmental wackos with no reservations. He wants to close GITMO and bring the terrorists here where they will have the full benefit of the US legal system that will likely turn many of them loose here. The legislation he proposes usually take the form of McCain/Kennedy, McCain/Feingold, McCain/Lieberman, all of which gave the Left what it wanted and gave conservatives little of what they wanted. I don't have a clue what he would look for in an appointee to SCOTUS.

THESE are the problems conservatives have with McCain and why he has done so poorly among conservatives who have been paying attention.

He also gets a lot of stuff right and he does have a strong conservative voting record. It's just that he doesn't have a strong conservative voting record on some of the most important issues.

But whatever happens, Conservatives will find him preferable to Clinton or Obama. The question is, will Conservatives find him acceptable enough to get to the polls to vote for him?

He can't win in November without near 100% support from the conservative base.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 01:26 pm
I think McCain's opposition to the tax cuts was based on his conviction that Congress would not restrain spending, and that Bush would not veto the various pork-laden authorizations it enacted. If so events proved him right. I'm all for the tax cuts, but some serious restraint on spending is a necessary accompanyment - and that did not happen under Bush.

While you and many others may think amnesty for illegal immigrants is a horrendus thing, I wonder if you have contemplated the wholesale deportation of 10 million illegals and all that entails. The fact is our immigration & nationalization bureaucracy has been dysfunctional for several decades, and that is one of the causes of this mess.

John McCain was himself a victim of severe torture in North Vietnam. (The odd way he moves his arms reflects the combined effects of an injury received when he was shot down and a torture technique the Vietnamese regularly used - tying the elbows tightly togeter behind your back and suspending you from a rafter with a line attached to them. It usually dislocated both shoulders (every time) and the repeated effects left him disabled,) I think I will give him a break on this issue and assume he knows and understands something about it far better than his critics.

I will agree the campaign reform legislation (McCain Feingold) was a fiasco, worsening the problem it was intended to fix.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 01:32 pm
Quote:
McCAIN'S PROBLEM

Mark Steyn explains the reality on the ground to his fellow conservatives:
    The real story of the night, when you look at their rallies and their turn-out numbers, is that the Dems have two strong candidates either of whom could lead a united party to victory. Forget the gaseous platitudes: in Dem terms, their choice on Super Duper Tuesday was deciding which candidate was Super Duper and which was merely Super. Over on the GOP side, it was a choice between Weak & Divisive or Weaker & Unacceptable. Doesn't bode well for November.
That's about the size of it. McCain may have won Super Tuesday, but Rush & Co. don't like him, the South pretty clearly thinks he's inadequate on the Bible-thumping front, and he continues to do weakly among self-described conservatives and catastrophically badly among those who say they're "very conservative." That's a bummer for Republicans, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 01:53 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Conservatives usually don't sugarcoat the sins of their leaders. That is exemplified when the great lady of conservative ideals, Peggy Noonan herself, writes a sad commentary on how George W. Bush has decimated the Republican Party with his extreme swerves from those ideals.

Ah yes, Peggy Noonan, that great lady, who would never sugarcoat the sins of her leaders. Laughing

The Peggy Noonan who will go down in history as the author of one of the most over-the-top hagiographic descriptions of George W. Bush ever:

Quote:
This, truly, is a good man. And that is a rare thing. Agree with Mr. Bush's stands or disagree, there can be no doubting the depth of his seriousness and the degree to which he attempts to do what he is convinced is right, and to lead his country toward that vision of rightness. We have had many unusual men as president and some seemed like a gift and some didn't. Mr. Bush seems uniquely resolved to be as courageous as the times require and as helpful as they allow. There is a profound authenticity to him, and a fearlessness too.

A steady hand on the helm in high seas, a knowledge of where we must go and why, a resolve to achieve safe harbor. More and more this presidency is feeling like a gift.

Perhaps, if she would have shown just a sliver of the critical facilities that she has suddenly regained about Bush, now that he's a deeply impopular lame duck, back at the time he was into his third year as President, she might have had an ounce of credibility on this.

But hey, we're talking about somebody who wrote about Ronald Reagan, back in the day, in words like these:

Quote:
I first saw [President Reagan] as a foot, highly polished brown cordovan wagging merrily on a hassock. I spied it through the door. It was a beautiful foot, sleek. Such casual elegance and clean lines! But not a big foot, not formidable, maybe a little ...frail. I imagined cradling it in my arms, protecting it from unsmooth roads.

The woman would have had a great career as the court poet of, say, Turkmenbashi Razz
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 01:56 pm
woiyo wrote:
okie wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
McCain is one of the few honest, principled politicians left. That is his appeal. He does not toe the party line on every issue, but who wants a president that does? Isn't that one of the things that got Bush in trouble?

I do not understand the conservative outcry against McCain. It seems unproductive and out of step with the Republican party platform, which McCain supports. I guess he isn't far enough to the right for some folks, but now is not the time for a polarizing candidate. That is why the candidates are turning out as they are. People want a centrist President that can work with both parties in Congress to get the country back on it's feet.

Here is where you are dead wrong, McGentrix. I want the party line in terms of national security, immigration reform, economic issues, environmental nonsense, supreme court nominees, etc etc. Bipartisanship is a buzzword for compromise with worthless Democratic initiatives. Stabbing his own president and fellow Republicans in the back is not my brand of politics. You end up with McCain Feingold, worthless immigration bills, bad judge appointments, and all the rest.


Again, refresh yourself on the facts.

How did the 2 Supreme Court appointments turn out?

His immigration bill is not 100% but it does call for securing the boarder first. Blame Clinton and Bush for creating the mess the next President has to inherit.

His immigration bill is worse than worthless, woiyo. Yes, Reagan never fixed it, but hopefully we should have learned from that debacle so that the same mistake would not be repeated. And the whole argument about McCain revolves around the fact that he will do whatever he pleases once elected, he will poke a sharp stick in the eye of fellow Republicans. The supreme court nominees came out okay, not because of McCain, but because conservatives got it done, not him. Remember the gang of 14? McCain Feingold illustrates his basic lack of common sense, just my opinion.

My opposition has alot to do with his personality. I do not trust him, his demeanor is my way or else, and he is has a temper and he is arrogant, not the kind of president we need. Look, hopefully at the age of past 70, he will do better. And when folks like yourself defend him, yes, it makes a difference, perhaps I need to cut him some slack. Perhaps he will do a few positive things, we can only hope. I may end up voting for him, not that it will make any difference as the Democrat will likely be elected anyway.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 01:57 pm
Grabbing Tico's popcorn and sitting back...
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:02 pm
okie wrote:
woiyo wrote:
okie wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
McCain is one of the few honest, principled politicians left. That is his appeal. He does not toe the party line on every issue, but who wants a president that does? Isn't that one of the things that got Bush in trouble?

I do not understand the conservative outcry against McCain. It seems unproductive and out of step with the Republican party platform, which McCain supports. I guess he isn't far enough to the right for some folks, but now is not the time for a polarizing candidate. That is why the candidates are turning out as they are. People want a centrist President that can work with both parties in Congress to get the country back on it's feet.

Here is where you are dead wrong, McGentrix. I want the party line in terms of national security, immigration reform, economic issues, environmental nonsense, supreme court nominees, etc etc. Bipartisanship is a buzzword for compromise with worthless Democratic initiatives. Stabbing his own president and fellow Republicans in the back is not my brand of politics. You end up with McCain Feingold, worthless immigration bills, bad judge appointments, and all the rest.


Again, refresh yourself on the facts.

How did the 2 Supreme Court appointments turn out?

His immigration bill is not 100% but it does call for securing the boarder first. Blame Clinton and Bush for creating the mess the next President has to inherit.

His immigration bill is worse than worthless, woiyo. Yes, Reagan never fixed it, but hopefully we should have learned from that debacle so that the same mistake would not be repeated. And the whole argument about McCain revolves around the fact that he will do whatever he pleases once elected, he will poke a sharp stick in the eye of fellow Republicans. The supreme court nominees came out okay, not because of McCain, but because conservatives got it done, not him. Remember the gang of 14? McCain Feingold illustrates his basic lack of common sense, just my opinion.

My opposition has alot to do with his personality. I do not trust him, his demeanor is my way or else, and he is has a temper and he is arrogant, not the kind of president we need. Look, hopefully at the age of past 70, he will do better. And when folks like yourself defend him, yes, it makes a difference, perhaps I need to cut him some slack. Perhaps he will do a few positive things, we can only hope. I may end up voting for him, not that it will make any difference as the Democrat will likely be elected anyway.


Look, there are basiclly only 2 things any President can do that have an immediate and direct impact on this country.

1) Appointment of federal Justices
2) Deploy the military immeditely for a short period of time without Congressional approval.

Everything else is negotiated with Congress.

Now, how would you feel about another Clinton Presidency and she get to nominate Bubba to the US Supreme Court?

I will take whoever the Republicans nominate for that reason alone. Now all I need is to find a Democrat they can beat. I think they can beat Obama. Not so sure about Clinton.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:04 pm
I respect Ticomaya's opinion, and I realize he is a McCain supporter. It will be up to McCain to convince us that some of us are wrong about his record. Blatham, this should be instructive to you to help you figure out that you cannot generalize all conservatives, we all think for ourselves.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:10 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I think McCain's opposition to the tax cuts was based on his conviction that Congress would not restrain spending, and that Bush would not veto the various pork-laden authorizations it enacted. If so events proved him right. I'm all for the tax cuts, but some serious restraint on spending is a necessary accompanyment - and that did not happen under Bush.


The tax cuts proved to be as effective in stimulating the economy and prompting behavior that increased revenues as tax cuts, properly implemented, will do every time. Both Reagan and Bush 41 agreed to tax raises with agreement that Congress would cut spending. We got our taxes raised and Congress just spent more. Far better to cut taxes with the inherent benefits in that and deal with spending as a separate issue.

Quote:
While you and many others may think amnesty for illegal immigrants is a horrendus thing, I wonder if you have contemplated the wholesale deportation of 10 million illegals and all that entails. The fact is our immigration & nationalization bureaucracy has been dysfunctional for several decades, and that is one of the causes of this mess.


Carter gave illegals unconditional amnesty on condition that any others arriving illegally would be denied employment, social services, etc. and put the burden on the employers to enforce that. That lasted less than a year before employers became more and more lax and the feds did not enforce it. (I was an employer then so I do know of what I speak.) And the number of illegals in the United States doubled.

Then under Reagan we got the 1986 Immigration Reform bill that allowed amnesty for the new illegals already here but with the provision that the law would then be rigorously enforced. The illegals got to stay, the law didn't get enforced, and the number of illegals has more than guadrupled.

Remember that defintiion of insanity....doing the same stupid thing over and over while expecting different results?

Any form of amnesty just installs a bigger flashing neon sign over America saying, "Ya'll come on in, and if you make it and avoid detection for just a little while, they'll let you stay forever maybe with more benefits than even citizens get."

Refusing amnesty and enforcing the law doesn't assume that there need to be mass round ups and deportations. First you put together an effective and sensible guest worker program, then you give the people a short grace period to get their affairs in order and leave with the option of coming back under the guest worker program assuming they have a sponsor and a job waiting for them. For those who choose not to leave, you pull all but critical emergency benefits and create an environment so inhospitable to illegals that sensible people will leave voluntarily. The rest will mostly be the true undesirables that you deal with as they show themselves. The true hardship cases can be dealt with on an individual basis by Congress as special hardship cases have often been dealt with by Congress. You don't make policy for millions based on the special situation of a few.

Quote:
John McCain was himself a victim of severe torture in North Vietnam. (The odd way he moves his arms reflects the combined effects of an injury received when he was shot down and a torture technique the Vietnamese regularly used - tying the elbows tightly togeter behind your back and suspending you from a rafter with a line attached to them. It usually dislocated both shoulders (every time) and the repeated effects left him disabled,) I think I will give him a break on this issue and assume he knows and understands something about it far better than his critics.


So you don't do that or anything like that to people. We are better than those who do the worst kind of inhumanity to men or beasts for any reason. But you don't bring terrorists to the United States and give them every opportunity to be turned loose here either. I see these as entirely separate things. (I also respect the tremendous debt we owe John McCain for his service to this country.)

Quote:
I will agree the campaign reform legislation (McCain Feingold) was a fiasco, worsening the problem it was intended to fix.


It is especially onerous when it is noted that he exempted a block of his own largest contributors to provisions of the law in McCain Feingold.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:19 pm
Mad Republican Primary elections permit write-in votes.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:21 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Mad Republican Primary elections permit write-in votes.


So who do we write in and how do we convince everybody to write in the same name?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:35 pm
Okie says:
Quote:
I respect Ticomaya's opinion, and I realize he is a McCain supporter. It will be up to McCain to convince us that some of us are wrong about his record. Blatham, this should be instructive to you to help you figure out that you cannot generalize all conservatives, we all think for ourselves.


ican711nm wrote:
Republican Primary elections permit write-in votes.

Foxfyre says:
Quote:
So who do we write in and how do we convince everybody to write in the same name?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:41 pm
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Conservatives usually don't sugarcoat the sins of their leaders. That is exemplified when the great lady of conservative ideals, Peggy Noonan herself, writes a sad commentary on how George W. Bush has decimated the Republican Party with his extreme swerves from those ideals.

Ah yes, Peggy Noonan, that great lady, who would never sugarcoat the sins of her leaders. Laughing

The Peggy Noonan who will go down in history as the author of one of the most over-the-top hagiographic descriptions of George W. Bush ever:

Quote:
This, truly, is a good man. And that is a rare thing. Agree with Mr. Bush's stands or disagree, there can be no doubting the depth of his seriousness and the degree to which he attempts to do what he is convinced is right, and to lead his country toward that vision of rightness. We have had many unusual men as president and some seemed like a gift and some didn't. Mr. Bush seems uniquely resolved to be as courageous as the times require and as helpful as they allow. There is a profound authenticity to him, and a fearlessness too.

A steady hand on the helm in high seas, a knowledge of where we must go and why, a resolve to achieve safe harbor. More and more this presidency is feeling like a gift.

Perhaps, if she would have shown just a sliver of the critical facilities that she has suddenly regained about Bush, now that he's a deeply impopular lame duck, back at the time he was into his third year as President, she might have had an ounce of credibility on this.

But hey, we're talking about somebody who wrote about Ronald Reagan, back in the day, in words like these:

Quote:
I first saw [President Reagan] as a foot, highly polished brown cordovan wagging merrily on a hassock. I spied it through the door. It was a beautiful foot, sleek. Such casual elegance and clean lines! But not a big foot, not formidable, maybe a little ...frail. I imagined cradling it in my arms, protecting it from unsmooth roads.

The woman would have had a great career as the court poet of, say, Turkmenbashi Razz


Well ridicule her all you want, but she tells it like she sees it. And if somebody doesn't live up to her hopes and expectatons, she will say so. She isn't saying that Bush is not a good man now. She is saying he screwed up bigtime and that came with a heavy cost. Perhaps you find fault with that. I don't.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:43 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Mad Republican Primary elections permit write-in votes.


So who do we write in and how do we convince everybody to write in the same name?

Write in your own name as a protest against all the official Republican candidates, if you do not have a particular preference among them. That would be equivalent to voting NONE OF THE ABOVE.

But! Be sure and vote for House and Senate Republican candidates.

On the otherhand, if you know someone you think would be better than any of the current Republican candidates, please name her or him.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:44 pm
blatham wrote:
Okie says:
Quote:
I respect Ticomaya's opinion, and I realize he is a McCain supporter. It will be up to McCain to convince us that some of us are wrong about his record. Blatham, this should be instructive to you to help you figure out that you cannot generalize all conservatives, we all think for ourselves.


ican711nm wrote:
Republican Primary elections permit write-in votes.

Foxfyre says:
Quote:
So who do we write in and how do we convince everybody to write in the same name?


Yeah, I should have added that it hasn't worked out very well for us up to now. I'm sure all this is all right over your head given how you are so open minded and willing to see and hear all points of view and all.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 02:49 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Mad Republican Primary elections permit write-in votes.


So who do we write in and how do we convince everybody to write in the same name?

Write in your own name as a protest against all the official Republican candidates, if you do not have a particular preference among them. That would be equivalent to voting NONE OF THE ABOVE.

But! Be sure and vote for House and Senate Republican candidates.

On the otherhand, if you know someone you think would be better than any of the current Republican candidates, please name her or him.


And then we won't be any better off than we were when had a field of 12 to pick from. Smile

Unfortunately us conservatives are so much independent thinkers, it appears we have a tough time falling into step behind any leader. I do hope we can get our act together before we wind up with two or three more Stevens or Breyers or Ginsburgs on the Supreme Court though. I'm pretty sure I'm not an option though. I haven't slept in a Holiday Inn Express all week.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 03:28 pm
okie wrote:
I respect Ticomaya's opinion, and I realize he is a McCain supporter. It will be up to McCain to convince us that some of us are wrong about his record. Blatham, this should be instructive to you to help you figure out that you cannot generalize all conservatives, we all think for ourselves.


Well, in the last 24 hours or so I have disagreed with you, Tico, BrandX, Mysteryman, McG, Ican, and Georgeob1 on at least something. (There have probably been others too.) And I'm guessing that each of you have probably disagreed with everybody else on at least some point on some issue sometime this week. And I'm crazy wow fond of every one of you, think you are terrific, and even some of the liberals with whom I rarely agree.

But I bet not one of us have suggested boycotting a debate aired on MSNBC or CNN or any other source nor suggested that it was a betrayal for 'our candidate' to be seen in those venues. We're all so close minded and tunnel visioned and all.

Actually I'm looking forward to Hillay and Obama being interviewed by the Fox news guys. Maybe they'll finally be asked some pertinent questions about how they will handle abortion and taxes and immigration and litmus tests for appointees, etc. that they've been able to pretty much avoid up to now and which the Republicans have had to answer numerous times.
0 Replies
 
 

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