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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 04:43 am
Some of the internal forces arrayed against McCain
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/13/AR2008011303659.html?hpid=topnews

McCain, Huckabee and Ron Paul, the three Republican candidates who have generated excitement within the normally conservative-voting electorate are precisely the three who the Washington republican establishment do not want to see succeed because each pose some level of threat to the accumulated power (and wealth which arises) they presently enjoy.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 03:53 pm
Help from the 19th century on the wise choice of a candidate for office.

Quote:
Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/toc_indx.html

Chapter XV
UNLIMITED POWER OF THE MAJORITY IN THE UNITED STATES, AND ITS CONSEQUENCES
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch15.htm

Chapter VII
WHAT CAUSES DEMOCRATIC NATIONS
TO INCLINE TOWARDS PANTHEISM
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/ch1_07.htm
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 05:57 pm
WHAT DO THE CANDIDATES WANT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO ACCOMPLISH?

WHICH OF THE CANDIDATES WANT TO ACCOMPLISH WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING?

1. Persevere in Iraq and Afghanistan until al-Qaeda is removed and the Iraq and Afghanistan governments are able to secure their people against being killed by their governments , or by other people in or outside their countries.

2. Monitor suspected terrorist communications to, from, or within the U.S.A.;

3. Require the authority of the federal government be limited to those powers granted it by the USA Constitution as was amended and as was interpreted by those lawfully adopting those amendments.

4. Reform the Federal Government to strictly comply with those powers delegated to it by the lawfully amended USA Constitution, and begin by terminating those departments not expressly authorized by the USA Constitution.

5. Appoint federal judges who will be bound by the USA Constitution, and who will fulfill their oath to support the U.S.A. Constitution.

6. Stop limiting any state from developing its domestic oil reserves and oil refining facilities, and remove all federal impediments to development of USA petroleum reserves to facilitate USA energy independence of foreign countries;

7. Require all public school districts within the USA provide parents means to aid them purchase other than public education for their children when requested by parents to do so;

8. Replace the current federal tax system with one that makes the rates of all duties, imposts (e.g., income taxes), and excises (e.g., consumption taxes) uniform per each dollar taxed (per Article I, Section 8, 1st paragraph of the US Constitution) throughout the United States of America;

9. Replace the entire current federal income tax system with a single uniform personal income tax that taxes all dollars of personal income regardless of their source at the same rate without deductions, exemptions, paybacks, discounts, or any other exceptions.

10 Make all class action civil suits illegal.

11. Limit civil suit awards to a maximum of four times actual damages.

12. Require losers of civil law suits to pay the winners' legal expenses;

13. Require all voters to supply proof of U.S.A. citizenship and be lawfully registered at least 13 days before voting,

14. Require labor unions hold secret ballot elections every 2 years to obtain a majority, not merely a plurality of those voting, of the workers in any work shop in order to be authorized to represent the workers in that work shop for the next two years;

15. Authorize the president to possess the authority to veto supplementary congressional spending programs attached to bills submitted to him by the Congress for his signature;

16. Repeal all Campaign Finance laws;

17. Repeal all federal aid to education;

18. Repeal all federal retirement programs for other than federal employees;

19. Repeal all medical insurance programs for other than federal employees;

20. Repeal all federal charities;

21. Require all federal appointments recommended by the president to be voted on by Congress within 3 months from the time the President submits a recommendation to Congress;

22. Remove from office any federal judge that cites foreign law in support of his or her decisions;

23. Require the Congress to submit to the state legislatures for their approval a Constitutional Amendment that empowers three-quarters of the state legislatures to vacate USA Supreme Court decisions;

24. Prohibit the Congress from establishing any form of religion whether it be a form of atheism or a form of theism;

25. Permit the display of both religious and non-religious artifacts on government property on a first come first serve basis;

26. Secure U.S.A. borders, and explicitly identify every non-citizen in our nation;

27. Eliminate all laws limiting what individuals can themselves choose to do to their own bodies.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:24 pm
The votes in Michigan is a lot more important than most people realize; their economy is one of the worst in the country, and they want solutions as their number one priority.

During the next ten months, more states are going to resemble Michigan's economy, and they're going to be reacting in the same way the voters in Michigan are voting today.

Very few, if any, of the current candidates are talking about the economy. Somebody needs to tell them that the US economy is the number one issue for Americans. Everything else is secondary.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 07:57 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
During the next ten months, more states are going to resemble Michigan's economy, and they're going to be reacting in the same way the voters in Michigan are voting today.

By massively staying at home and abstaining?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jan, 2008 11:36 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
The votes in Michigan is a lot more important than most people realize; their economy is one of the worst in the country, and they want solutions as their number one priority.

During the next ten months, more states are going to resemble Michigan's economy, and they're going to be reacting in the same way the voters in Michigan are voting today.

Very few, if any, of the current candidates are talking about the economy. Somebody needs to tell them that the US economy is the number one issue for Americans. Everything else is secondary.


So does that mean they will also vote for Romney to fix the "broken Washington?"
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jan, 2008 01:02 am
I think two things are going on in Michigan and its low turnout; 1) weather, and 2) they've always had a low turnout on elections. Just guessing.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jan, 2008 01:02 am
nimh wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
During the next ten months, more states are going to resemble Michigan's economy, and they're going to be reacting in the same way the voters in Michigan are voting today.

By massively staying at home and abstaining?
Laughing
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jan, 2008 01:06 am
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jan, 2008 05:44 am
Romney, voted to the top by Dems?

Romney 39%
McCain 30%
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jan, 2008 06:08 am
Brand X wrote:
Romney, voted to the top by Dems?

Romney 39%
McCain 30%


The numbers I have seen (can't recall where now) suggested that dem voters broke about even for Romney and McCain.

I like this result as I'm pretty sure the polls reflect what is likely to occur with either a Romney or a McCain candidacy.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 04:24 am
Here's a really witty sentence from Collins in today's ny times...
Quote:
How long can the Republicans avoid letting anybody win two primaries?
Actually, the column is well worth the read
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/opinion/17collins-oped.html?hp
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 09:16 am
Quote:
John McCain's real war record
On the campaign trail he touts his sharp criticism of Donald Rumsfeld and the Bush administration on Iraq. But a look at McCain's record reveals a different war story.
By Mark Benjamin

Jan. 17, 2008 | Early last year, John McCain seemed to lash his political fortune to the success or failure of the troop "surge" in Iraq. Backing the surge fit his carefully tended reputation as a maverick; his allies noted that McCain was bravely risking his political career to do what he believed was right. "I have just finished an election campaign," Sen. Joe Lieberman said last January when he and McCain pushed the surge at a meeting at the conservative American Enterprise Institute. "If rumors are correct, he may be starting one," Lieberman said of McCain, standing at his side. "He is not taking the easy way out here. But he is taking the way that he believes is best for the safety of our children and grandchildren and the values and the way of life that America has come to represent."

A year later, leaving aside the question of its long-term effects, the surge has had a tangible short-term security impact in Baghdad. And McCain, in his campaign for the Republican presidential nomination, isn't going to let us forget that he knew better all along. "I'm proud to have been one of those who played a key role in bringing about one of the most important changes in recent years," McCain trumpeted during the GOP debate in Manchester, N.H., on Jan. 6. "And that was the change in strategy from a failing strategy in Iraq pursued by Secretary Rumsfeld." Two days later, McCain won the Granite State primary.

In fact, lately former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has become quite the punching bag for McCain on the campaign trail. Part of the McCain mantra, whether recited on the stump or to reporters on his campaign bus, is that he knew that Gen. David Petraeus' surge of troops would work better than Rumsfeld's light footprint approach. It's his way of supporting the war while criticizing the way it was executed by the Bush administration without ever uttering the word "Bush." It is also meant to be proof of the gravitas McCain would bring to the job of commander in chief. "I have the knowledge and experience and judgment, as my support of the Petraeus strategy indicated, and my condemnation of the previous Rumsfeld strategy," said McCain in a Jan. 9 NBC "Today" show interview. "No other candidate running for president did that on either side."

But to buy into the McCain-knows-best version of the Iraq war, you have to ignore a lot of history. McCain was among the most aggressive proponents of a preemptive strike against Saddam Hussein, cosponsoring the resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq. He also expressed full faith in the way it would be executed -- a war plan conceived and executed by Rumsfeld.

He did call for more troops in Iraq sooner than some, but later than others who made the same argument before the first shots were even fired. And McCain's support for Rumsfeld only evaporated over time, as it became painfully clear that the war in Iraq was going south.

Bert Rockman, the head of the political science department at Purdue University, said McCain's commander-in-chief argument is tarnished because he advocated "the right tactics and the wrong strategy."

"It was a mistake probably to have gone in, that is the real issue," Rockman explained. "We have discovered there are worse things than Saddam Hussein."

During the run-up to the war, McCain argued vociferously in favor of an invasion, quoting the logic of Vice President Dick Cheney. "As Vice President Cheney has said of those who argue that containment and deterrence are working, the argument comes down to this: Yes, Saddam is as dangerous as we say he is," McCain said in a saber-rattling speech at the Center for Strategic and International Studies on Feb. 13, 2003. "We just need to let him get stronger before we do anything about it," he added sarcastically.

In the period leading up to the war, McCain sounded, at times, less like a straight-talking maverick and more like the neoconservative former Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz. "It's going to send the message throughout the Middle East that democracy can take hold in the Middle East," McCain said about the war on Fox's "Hannity & Colmes" on Feb. 21, 2003. He seemed to think Iraq would be a cakewalk, predicting that the war "will be brief."

He also sounded like Wolfowitz's boss, Donald Rumsfeld, as far back as late 2002. Despite all his talk now about more troops, as the war drums built toward a crescendo, McCain argued that better technology meant fewer troops were going to be needed in Iraq. "Our technology, particularly air-to-ground technology, is vastly improved," McCain told CNN's Larry King on Dec. 9, 2002. "I don't think you're going to have to see the scale of numbers of troops that we saw, nor the length of the buildup, obviously, that we had back in 1991." It was pure Rumsfeld.

But even back then, not everyone was so sure that the war would be brief or that Rumsfeld's smaller force would be sufficient. On Feb. 25, 2003, then-Army Chief of Staff Gen. Eric Shinseki famously warned the Senate Armed Services Committee that "several hundred thousand" soldiers would be needed to take and hold Iraq. Rumsfeld publicly disagreed with Shinseki's estimate.

If McCain shared Shinseki's position, he didn't say so at the time. "I have no qualms about our strategic plans," he told the Hartford Courant in a March 5 article, just before the invasion. "I thought we were very successful in Afghanistan."

And while he was quiet about Shinseki, McCain shouted down some naysayers who proved to be much more prescient than he. On the cusp of the invasion, West Virginia Democrat Sen. Robert Byrd took to the Senate floor on March 19, 2003, to denounce the war. It was a speech that predicted the future debacle so accurately that it now seems that the senior senator from West Virginia had a crystal ball in his Senate desk. "We proclaim a new doctrine of preemption which is understood by few and feared by many," Byrd warned. "After the war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America's image around the globe."

McCain pounced, taking to the Senate floor to predict that "when the people of Iraq are liberated, we will again have written another chapter in the glorious history of the United States of America."

By June 2003, McCain was still generally in the "Mission Accomplished" camp. "I have said a long time that reconstruction of Iraq would be a long, long, difficult process," he told Fox News on June 11. "But the conflict, the major conflict is over ... The regime change is accomplished."

It was during an August 2003 visit to Iraq that McCain seems to have realized that the Iraq tale was not unfolding as another chapter in the glorious history of the United States. (It is not entirely clear when he came to the realization, since the McCain campaign failed to return my call asking for a staffer to go through this history with me.) While he was in Iraq, insurgents used a truck bomb to blow up the United Nations headquarters in Baghdad on Aug. 19, killing U.N. envoy Sergio Vieira de Mello. McCain told NPR on Aug. 29, 2003, that "we need more troops" in Iraq. "When I say more troops, we need a lot more of certain skills, such as civil affairs capability, military police. We need more linguists," McCain added.

And McCain was not always sour on Rumsfeld. As late as May 12, 2004, in the wake of the Abu Ghraib scandal, McCain was asked on "Hannity & Colmes" whether Rumsfeld could still be effective in his job. "Yes, today I do and I believe he's done a fine job," McCain responded. "He's an honorable man."

It is true that by late 2004, McCain was down on the secretary of defense, telling the press that he had "no confidence" in Rumsfeld. But the clips show that he stopped short of calling for Rumsfeld's resignation, saying it was the president's prerogative to pick his own national security team.

To be fair, McCain has been calling for more troops for years now. And political experts do think McCain's argument on the surge may still gain some traction among GOP voters. "We still have about two-thirds of Republicans who support the effort in Iraq," explained Stephen Wayne, a professor of government at Georgetown. "It certainly would work with the Republican audience he is appealing to." That may depend, in part, on the memories of the people in that audience.


http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/01/17/mccain/
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 09:28 am
blatham wrote:
Here's a really witty sentence from Collins in today's ny times...
Quote:
How long can the Republicans avoid letting anybody win two primaries?
Actually, the column is well worth the read
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/opinion/17collins-oped.html?hp


You know, I remember when they first started televising the national political conventions. These were not coronations but a hard fought selection process took place to arrive at the candidate of choice to run for President. A lot of states cast their first round of votes for a 'favorite son' who had no chance for the nomination but allowed the delegates to then shift their subsequent votes at will. Often several votes were required before a candidate emerged with a clear majority.

It was interesting to watch. And perhaps it produced better candidates?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 09:55 am
blatham wrote:
Here's a really witty sentence from Collins in today's ny times...
Quote:
How long can the Republicans avoid letting anybody win two primaries?
Actually, the column is well worth the read
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/opinion/17collins-oped.html?hp

Romney has already won two. Maybe you elites don't count Wyoming as a state?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 10:24 am
okie wrote:
blatham wrote:
Here's a really witty sentence from Collins in today's ny times...
Quote:
How long can the Republicans avoid letting anybody win two primaries?
Actually, the column is well worth the read
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/opinion/17collins-oped.html?hp

Romney has already won two. Maybe you elites don't count Wyoming as a state?


Laughing Okay that was good.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 10:27 am
Not much of a state. Mitt will also win Utah so we know of three he'll get. He's leading in Nevada so there's a possible four.

States with a high percentages of conservative Christian, esp. Southern Baptist, will go for the Huskster. For example he's leading in Alabama and has a slender lead in OK.

How's Mitt doing in those conservative religious states? Zilch.

I expect Hillary to win the Democrat nomination, barring any major screwups.

For the Republicans I expect McCain a winner. Rudy's out of it. He put all his money on Fl and McCain has caught up with him and is passing him. Don't see anyone else on the Republican side that can win. Mitt's Mormon faith and waffling will eliminate him. Rudy is a one issue candidate; 9/11; kiss his ass goodbye; Thompson has no life, an old lazy man who can't generate any sparks and the Huckster will only get the religious right vote, not enough to carry him into the lead.

http://www.election2008polls.com/

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/fl/florida_republican_primary-260.html

Predicting, of course, is a very dangerous game but for now that's how I see things.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 10:44 am
xingu wrote:

Predicting, of course, is a very dangerous game but for now that's how I see things.

I don't know about dangerous, but even the pollsters have been wildly wrong, and you know less than they. The opinions of people are in a state of flux, so what was an issue yesterday may not hold. For example, I think I heard Romney did not get beat with the evangelical vote in Michigan, and he is not that out of it in some southern states in some polls. If the economy gains center stage, this could work in his favor. All of these things are in a state of flux. I disagree with you about McCain, I think if he loses another state or two soon, he is probably toast, and might have a tough time winning even Arizona, because remember he has alienated alot of voters with his record on more than one issue. The only reason he won New Hampshire was that NH is not a conventional state and the independents and moderate Republicans vote differently there.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 11:14 am
Foxfyre wrote:
okie wrote:
blatham wrote:
Here's a really witty sentence from Collins in today's ny times...
Quote:
How long can the Republicans avoid letting anybody win two primaries?
Actually, the column is well worth the read
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/opinion/17collins-oped.html?hp

Romney has already won two. Maybe you elites don't count Wyoming as a state?


Laughing Okay that was good.


As you know, even Mitt didn't spend much time mentioning the transcendant event.


Fox
Being from canada, we didn't follow the primary/caucus very closely. I recall a bit of it but mainly we'd get interested when the final selection had been made and the conventions went into full balloon regalia.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jan, 2008 11:15 am
xingu, We make predictions based on what we know "now." Although situations and conditions can change, we base our predictions on best future environment for the candidates now running.

Nothing wrong with your predictions; actually, it's probably not far off from how many of us are thinking - now.
0 Replies
 
 

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