Quote: If you have been a soldier and have killed people, I guess you have to believe that what you were doing was right.
You've hit the nail on the head. It's why most soldiers can't stand guys like the Charlie that wrote the original piece in the thread; it challenges the
incredibly important psychological defense that these people who have participated in bloody warfare need: that what they were doing was right; that it was neccessary.
If you challenge this defense, they freak out and attack you for doing so; admitting that your position has merit would be admitting to themselves that the things that were done, were wrong.
Sometimes I think the survivors of the various wars we've been in are just as sad as those who didn't make it.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:Quote: If you have been a soldier and have killed people, I guess you have to believe that what you were doing was right.
You've hit the nail on the head. It's why most soldiers can't stand guys like the Charlie that wrote the original piece in the thread; it challenges the
incredibly important psychological defense that these people who have participated in bloody warfare need: that what they were doing was right; that it was neccessary.
If you challenge this defense, they freak out and attack you for doing so; admitting that your position has merit would be admitting to themselves that the things that were done, were wrong.
Sometimes I think the survivors of the various wars we've been in are just as sad as those who didn't make it.
Cycloptichorn
Not always. Unless you have been in a foreign place, in the black of night, with enemy fire around you, the only thing I ever thought of was GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE. I have shot at trees thinking they were enemy soldiers and I did not care about the "mission" at that time. Only saving my butt to live to fight another day.
woiyo wrote:Not always. Unless you have been in a foreign place, in the black of night, with enemy fire around you, the only thing I ever thought of was GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE. I have shot at trees thinking they were enemy soldiers and I did not care about the "mission" at that time. Only saving my butt to live to fight another day.
A M E N Woiyo, A M E N!!!!
Anon
Operation Firing For Effect is Organizing
A MILLION VETERAN MARCH !!!
The web site Edit [Moderator]: Link removed is trying to organize a Million Veteran March on Washington D.C. for April of this year.
Politicians ignore Veterans and screw us because we are usually divided and pose no political power. We need to UNITE and get as many Veterans, as well as families, and friends, as we can to join this march.
Numbers is all politicians care about. Please check out the Million Veteran March Site and also the link to their Stardust Veteran Radio Show. Edit [Moderator]: Link removed
I don't doubt that, Woiyo; I can't imagine that I would have time to think at such a time!
But later on; if you had killed someone, dropped a bomb, defended your guys, wouldn't you want to believe it was for a good cause? I'm not blaming anyone for their beliefs; I understand why they feel that way.
Cycloptichorn
Interesting - and, really, quite telling - that so many of those most vociferously in opposition to the war in Iraq have neither experience of war nor of uniformed service, and that when one with such experience echoes their sentiments, that one is lionized and held as paragon, while the millions of others sharing actual martial experience, with or without having seen combat, in no way endorse and with great frequency repudiate such sentiment.
There's an irony there, reflected well in this:
It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the Soldier, not the lawyer,
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the Soldier, who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protestor to burn the flag.
Fr. Daniel O'Brien, USMC
Something else, apart from The Marine Corps, of which I'm proud, is that we live in a society which holds sacred the right of free speech. I think too it is good war is so reviled, and arouses such antagonistic emotion. It is something which must never achieve universal popularity; only so long as there are folks who are willing and able to publically protest is there anything worth fighting for.
timberlandko, here's one of my favorite writings from one of my favorite Marines.
http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm
Well-written Timber, thank you.
Cycloptichorn
blueflame, I respect Smedley more than probably you can imagine. I'm also quite aware the world in which he lived was a much simpler, safer world than that in which we live today. The thinking exemplified in that quote from Gen. Butler precisely is the thinking that thrust WWII onto the world, and is causally operational in much, if not most, of the global conflict since. As Georges Santayana said, "Those who will not remember the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it".
timberlandkp, this is exciting. A MILLION VETERAN MARCH !!! Vets who know they've been abused. Maybe they can help save the next generation from the same kind of abuse.
Cycloptichorn wrote:Well-written Timber, thank you.
Cycloptichorn
And thank you for thinking and saying so, Cyc. I appreciate that very much.
Cycloptichorn wrote:I don't doubt that, Woiyo; I can't imagine that I would have time to think at such a time!
But later on; if you had killed someone, dropped a bomb, defended your guys, wouldn't you want to believe it was for a good cause? I'm not blaming anyone for their beliefs; I understand why they feel that way.
Cycloptichorn
Many years , many many years later on I did think about that. As I got older, I look back at my time and wonder if it really made a difference and today I realize what a waste the Viet Nam War was.
I am still a Hawk today relative to the middle east situations GULF 1 and Afganistan and Iraq2 currently. However, these situations do not compare to Viet Nam since I realized years later that Viet Nam was not and would never be a clear a present danger tot he US. I never supported Bosnia nor Somalia as neither represented any clear and present danger to the US.
Gulf 1 was justifiable and our tactics were outstanding and we suffered basiclly minimal death of US soldiers. Afganistan is similiar, but we need to get out NOW. Gulf 2 was justifiable going in but we never should have stayed and need to get out yesterday.
But that is just me and every Vet has different stories and feelings based upon their own experiences.
Like I said Timber, I've got the greatest respect for you. You continue to earn it!
Anon
woiyo wrote:
I am still a Hawk today relative to the middle east situations GULF 1 and Afganistan and Iraq2 currently. However, these situations do not compare to Viet Nam since I realized years later that Viet Nam was not and would never be a clear a present danger tot he US. I never supported Bosnia nor Somalia as neither represented any clear and present danger to the US.
.
So then we are to just ignore the treaties that we sign just because YOU think Milosovich posed no imminent threat?
woiyo wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:I don't doubt that, Woiyo; I can't imagine that I would have time to think at such a time!
But later on; if you had killed someone, dropped a bomb, defended your guys, wouldn't you want to believe it was for a good cause? I'm not blaming anyone for their beliefs; I understand why they feel that way.
Cycloptichorn
Many years , many many years later on I did think about that. As I got older, I look back at my time and wonder if it really made a difference and today I realize what a waste the Viet Nam War was.
I am still a Hawk today relative to the middle east situations GULF 1 and Afganistan and Iraq2 currently. However, these situations do not compare to Viet Nam since I realized years later that Viet Nam was not and would never be a clear a present danger tot he US. I never supported Bosnia nor Somalia as neither represented any clear and present danger to the US.
Gulf 1 was justifiable and our tactics were outstanding and we suffered basiclly minimal death of US soldiers. Afganistan is similiar, but we need to get out NOW. Gulf 2 was justifiable going in but we never should have stayed and need to get out yesterday.
But that is just me and every Vet has different stories and feelings based upon their own experiences.
As you get older, you will realize that Iraq1, and Iraq2 were just as evil as VietNam.
Anon
Anon-Voter wrote:woiyo wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:I don't doubt that, Woiyo; I can't imagine that I would have time to think at such a time!
But later on; if you had killed someone, dropped a bomb, defended your guys, wouldn't you want to believe it was for a good cause? I'm not blaming anyone for their beliefs; I understand why they feel that way.
Cycloptichorn
Many years , many many years later on I did think about that. As I got older, I look back at my time and wonder if it really made a difference and today I realize what a waste the Viet Nam War was.
I am still a Hawk today relative to the middle east situations GULF 1 and Afganistan and Iraq2 currently. However, these situations do not compare to Viet Nam since I realized years later that Viet Nam was not and would never be a clear a present danger tot he US. I never supported Bosnia nor Somalia as neither represented any clear and present danger to the US.
Gulf 1 was justifiable and our tactics were outstanding and we suffered basiclly minimal death of US soldiers. Afganistan is similiar, but we need to get out NOW. Gulf 2 was justifiable going in but we never should have stayed and need to get out yesterday.
But that is just me and every Vet has different stories and feelings based upon their own experiences.
As you get older, you will realize that Iraq1, and Iraq2 were just as evil as VietNam.
Anon
No anon,
Thats not true.
If you had been in either one and seen how the people suffered under Hussein,you would agree that both were neccessary.
Put aside your blinders and look at the truth.
Go to Kuwait City and ask the people that survived Iraq's invasion what life was like before liberation.
Ask me and the other marines what conditions in the city were like.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37997&start=6930
You may have been there, but you have no clue of what caused it and how it happened. Your psychosis is getting worse by the moment! I know, I know, you're the war hero of Iraq ... we've heard it before!! You still don't know **** about it!!
Just to irritate you a little, we're the one's who put this nutcase in power, and we're the ones who gave him the gas to kill his own people, and we're the ones who did nothing about it when he did it!! We're the ones who got the Kurds to rebel, and then we let them die alone!!
Saddam was "OUR ALLY" in the war he waged against Iraq. Meanwhile, we armed them both and provided "intelligence" to them both ... at the same time!! Yea, we're real heros, aren't we!!
By the way, I'm watching the news ... they're going into the fraud and deceit practiced by the government and Custer Battle as they bilked the American Taxpayer. Iraq reconstruction wants to know where the 8.8 Billion went that our Adminmstration stole. Catch it on 60 minutes!!
By the way, have you heard of Pillar? He's ratting out the Administration as to their manipulating of intelligence to start the war. He was only in charge of that Division until he quit in disgust. He's on TV right now telling about how Bush "cherry-picked" information. Pillar warned them that they would feed the terrorist effort and have a complete mess in Iraq if they attacked Iraq.
On and On, the lies, the deceptions, the thefts of taxpayer money, the graft, the entire messy picture unveils!!
And you eat it up!!
Oh good! Now Brown is on telling us how he warned Bush about Katrina, and told them that the levies had broken. Contrary to the lies told to us by the Bush Whitehouse!! He called the WH directly and kept Bush dialed in on exactly what happened!!
Your hero is a deadbeat, a loser that had sodomized this nation bloody, and you cheer him on!!
Yea, you're a real national hero MM, we're so proud!!
Anon
Ex-Official: White House 'Cherry-Picked' Pre-War Intelligence
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184514,00.html
On and On, the rot, the filth, and the decay come oozing out of the Bush Whitehouse!!
And I used Faux News, just for you!!
If you gave Bush a big hard squeeze, he would explode into a river of pus!!
Anon
anon,
I have never claimed to be a war hero,so there is another lie you are trying to tell.
I also dont claim to be an expert on the middle east,but That doesnt change the fact that I was there and saw with my own eyes what happened to the people of Kuwait,especially those that dared to resist Iraq.
I will say it again,go to Kuwait and ask the people there what life under Saddam was like and if they think that Desert Storm was worth it or not.
You will find out that they think it was,as do 99% of the vets I know that were there.
And unlike you,the vets dont laugh when Americans die in action.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37997&start=6930
