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Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

 
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 11:12 am
edgar, what does your friend say about people who experience misfortune even though they have done nothing to warrant retribution from God, and wicked people who go unpunished in this life?
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 11:13 am
theollady, in Genesis God lied to Adam and Eve, but the serpent told them the truth. Satan delivered us from ignorance and blind obedience to authority. God retaliated by endowing us with pain, suffering, and death. Your awesome and loving God drowned millions of innocent children and animals because he wasn't happy with his handiwork. He killed all of the firstborn in Egypt, even of prisoners who were in no way responsible for the actions of the Pharaoh. He allowed Job's children to be killed to win a bet with Satan. He sacrificed his own son to himself, even though he had the choice to forgive us for our God-given frailties without killing anyone.

If God was not threatening to throw us in hell no matter how good we try to be on our own, there is really nothing Jesus needs to save us from.

I have read the Bible you are misquoting, the whole thing, cover-to-cover. That is the primary reason why I am not a Christian.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 11:16 am
What happened to the discussion of brains, time and other dimensions? Just when a topic starts to get interesting ... Sad
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 11:55 am
Referring to himself and his injured back, he says God does not see fit to heal him. Perhaps he considers it a necessary tribulation. But without his disabling injuries he might never have turned to God. He says he was quite a sinner before that.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 12:19 pm
Frank, as much as I hate to argue this point further, as indeed we have agreement, but I must take exception to some of what you have said.

About agnosticism:
Quote:
It isn't a belief. It is simply a statement of the truth.


This could quite possibly be the most ignorant statement you have ever written on A2K, of course there have been many to choose from, but this could be it.

Maybe You are the one that is confused as to what agnosticism is and what it means. As much as you will deny it, agnosticism IS a belief system.

Quote:
BUT, it is impossible to be "devout in one's belief" if there is no "belief." Talk with someone about that - I'm sure you will find someone who can explain it to you.


Main Entry: de·vout
Pronunciation: di-'vaut
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English devot, from Old French, from Late Latin devotus, from Latin, past participle of devovEre
1 : devoted to religion or to religious duties or exercises
2 : expressing devotion or piety <a devout attitude>
3 : devoted to a pursuit, belief, or mode of behavior : SERIOUS, EARNEST <a devout baseball fan> <born a devout coward -- G. B. Shaw>

Apply definition 3 to my sentence. Maybe you should get a dictionary of your own to help with these concepts as they appear to be beyond your reach sometimes.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 12:30 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Frank, as much as I hate to argue this point further, as indeed we have agreement, but I must take exception to some of what you have said.


Please do so. I enjoy what discussing this subject with you.

Quote:
About agnosticism:
Quote:
It isn't a belief. It is simply a statement of the truth.


This could quite possibly be the most ignorant statement you have ever written on A2K, of course there have been many to choose from, but this could be it.


Maybe You are the one that is confused as to what agnosticism is and what it means. As much as you will deny it, agnosticism IS a belief system.


Well, McG, apparently the only reason you think that is because you do not know what you are talking about.


If you would care to point out what "belief" is involved in "I do not know" -- I will be happy to discuss it with you.


Quote:



Quote:
BUT, it is impossible to be "devout in one's belief" if there is no "belief." Talk with someone about that - I'm sure you will find someone who can explain it to you.


Main Entry: de·vout
Pronunciation: di-'vaut
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English devot, from Old French, from Late Latin devotus, from Latin, past participle of devovEre
1 : devoted to religion or to religious duties or exercises
2 : expressing devotion or piety <a devout attitude>
3 : devoted to a pursuit, belief, or mode of behavior : SERIOUS, EARNEST <a devout baseball fan> <born a devout coward -- G. B. Shaw>

Apply definition 3 to my sentence. Maybe you should get a dictionary of your own to help with these concepts as they appear to be beyond your reach sometimes.


There is more to understanding and comprehension than owning a dictionary.

Try to figure this out on your own -- or go to someone for help.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 01:15 pm
Go here
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 01:22 pm
Terry wrote:
What happened to the discussion of brains, time and other dimensions? Just when a topic starts to get interesting ... Sad


A God is easier to understand than a spirit? At least this is true of the Gods men conjure......

Consider:
Aristotle: Forms and Souls
Metaphysics

Aristotle considered the most fundamental features of reality in the twelve books of the Metafusikh (Metaphysics). Although experience of what happens is a key to all demonstrative knowledge, Aristotle supposed that the abstract study of "being qua being" must delve more deeply, in order to understand why things happen the way they do. A quick review of past attempts at achieving this goal reveals that earlier philosophers had created more difficult questions than they had answered: the Milesians over-emphasized material causes; Anaxagoras over-emphasized mind; and Plato got bogged down in the theory of forms. Aristotle intended to do better.

Although any disciplined study is promising because there is an ultimate truth to be discovered, the abstractness of metaphysical reasoning requires that we think about the processes we are employing even as we use them in search of that truth. As always, Aristotle assumed that the structure of language and logic naturally mirrors the way things really are. Thus, the major points of each book are made by carefully analyzing our linguistic practices as a guide to the ultimate nature of what is.

Fundamental Truths

It is reasonable to begin, therefore, with the simplest rules of logic, which embody the most fundamental principles applying to absolutely everything that is:

The Law of Non-Contradiction in logic merely notes that no assertion is both true and false, but applied to reality this simple rule entails that nothing can both "be . . . " and "not be . . . " at the same time, although we will of course want to find room to allow for things to change. Thus, neither strict Protagorean relativism nor Parmenidean immutability offer a correct account of the nature of reality. (Metaphysics IV 3-6)

The Law of Excluded Middle in logic states the necessity that either an assertion or its negation must be true, and this entails that there is no profound indeterminacy in the realm of reality. Although our knowledge of an assertion may sometimes fall short of what we need in order to decide whether it is true or false, we can be sure that either it or its negation is true. (Metaphysics IV 7-8)

In order to achieve its required abstract necessity, all of metaphysics must be constructed from similar principles. Aristotle believed this to be the case because metaphysics is concerned with a genuinely unique subject matter. While natural science deals with moveable, separable things and mathematics focusses upon immoveable, inseparable things, metaphysics (especially in its highest, most abstract varieties) has as its objects only things that are both immoveable and separable. Thus, what we learn in metaphysics is nothing less than the immutable eternal nature, or essence, of individual things.
0 Replies
 
Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 01:25 pm
I'm here and I have been visiting with my only grandchild and his parents.
I am sorry to tell you all but this is the most beautiful child ever to be born. :wink:

Gel, Aristotle huh, would he say the glass it half full or half empty. It can be both. And aristotle was just another man in my eyes.. philosophy, just a pondering after the truth is not good enough for me.

Terry, sorry so see your opinion of God is so grevious.
What has he done to you? (You don't have to answer that.)
I know there is a Living God, and I believe I have found him.

There is Gods judgment and there is mans judgment.
Man has degrees for what is worse or what is non violent, or what is more deranged, or what is more sophisticated regarding good , evil, bad , insane etc. Man is good, some people. But it would be my wild guess at this time because the Bible states that God cannot look upon sin, that for some reason supernatural , outside our realm but inside the realm of God , that he cannot look upon sin. There seems to be a seperation of God and people when a person is sinning without the faith and belief of Jesus. It states, Jesus is the intercessor between man and God.
The so called goodness of a person is a fallacy. Mankind does not have the ability to see inside his pure persona. To a degree we so, but beyone that, beyond being convicted of a sin is not within the power of man. Once a conviction starts to take place within a person, it is up to the person to allow the HS to intercede and straighten the person out. Even to the point of the inner core of a person. To put away inner filth and to not cover inner filth with outer beauty or appearances.

To give note to some things in the Bible whether considered good or evil , right or wrong scriptures, is to pay heed to God and yet refuse to recognize in the conscious his true existance. It is a choice to give him glory or not. And we give God glory through faith.

Quote:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the KNOWLEDGE of sin. -Romans 3

It is your own knowledge that has blinded you. It would have been better for a non believer to never acquire knowledge if that is what you do with it. Use it as a reason to doubt Laughing God.


The Heavens declare the glory of God. Look at the magnetic field around the earth. It is everywhere, it cannot be seen, but it can be felt and used. Why do we call the sun, which is the brightest of all things man knows, the sun? Is it because the sun is the closest thing in our known world that we see daily and it is the brightest, which is similar to the qualities of The Son. Why do we measure time, which God created and is it by chance or design that time is measured from the time that Christ died. God will have his will done regardless. It is already spoken, no worries. Mere man, pitiful in his existance. His knowledge and pride is his destruction. For it is a lack of accurate knowledge that people perish.
[My people are destroyed for LACK OF knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge]
How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God.


Quote:
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their KNOWLEDGE, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient-Romans 1.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 03:02 pm
Ruach wrote:
Terry, sorry so see your opinion of God is so grevious.
What has he done to you? (You don't have to answer that.)


It would appear to me to be a simple reading of the bible. The question I would ask is how can you read the same book and associate it with "glory"?
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theollady
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 04:19 pm
Rauch, I very much feel the Spirit of your writing and however simply you have stated it, I understand what you are saying.

I would like to add some scripture for you to remember, as I congratulate you on the birth of a beautiful grandchild.


Paul is teaching Timothy to be a teacher pleasing to God- surely this teaching is for us also, who share the Holy word:

2 Tim.2: 23,24

"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach , patient."
Matt 7:1-
"Judge not that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Verse 6-Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and rend you."

! Corinthians 2:14

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned."


For these reasons, Rauch, I believe it is time for me to go. I had stopped by here to answer the query put out by Gelisgesti as below:


Quote:
Ruach, hello and welcome. The God you describe is one of great power and magnificence. The classic descripition of God's relationship with man is one in which man is granted neverending life in exchange for man's worship of God. It is said that God's wish is for 'companionship from man and that God wants the relationship to be one of free will, man's worship of God must be of man's choice. Isn't it disingenuous to grant free will and then to demand worship or death?



I always hope such questions about God are sincere and asked with an open heart that the Holy Spirit might quicken the understanding -
so the questioner will keep going, reading, asking more, and discovering that LIFE that is eternally given to the Christian believer.

I have no desire to quarrel or debate the Greatness of God, His existence, His omnipotence, His truth, or my acceptance of His Grace.
Apparently, I interrupted. It wont happen again.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 05:22 pm
To theollady, Not once have I taken my eye off the understanding that blinders Cool are on the eyes of the unbeliever. I too was once blind, but, now I can see. There lies the glory that eludes too many.
I started out knowing that even though it is a religious topic, which would be more interesting, to me dealing with people with understanding.
I am stumped on issues of knowledge and Holy Spirit understanding. Do they really and truly not understand Question Scripture says they will not.
I think that is a witness for the HS. Only those with his indwelling are capable of understanding. Crying or Very sad For my Father in Heaven has told you this.

Your right, I will bow out, unless a more reasonable understanding emerges. Downright hatred for God and atheists are Rolling Eyes
They want you to explain the same thing over and over.
Shocked
Peace
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 08:47 am
Still playng with your putter Frank? Shocked


Interesting stuff here
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 01:33 pm
The question asked at that site was: Can we believe in both science and religion?

That is a no-brainer.

You can "believe" in anything you want to.

If you want to "believe" you can train an elephant to walk a tight rope stretched across the Grand Canyon -- you can "believe" it.

Right?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 01:33 pm
Oh yeah, about my putter.

Yep, I'm still playin' with it.

Thanks for asking.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:04 am
The information presented in this post is just that, information.


Caution!!! are you sure you want to read this?
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micah
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:30 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am describing the god of the Bible. god is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengeful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster. In fact, that's really giving the god the benefit of the doubt.


The Old Testament reminds us to stand in awe of our God. It reminds us of His infinite control, and the means at His disposal. It reminds us that He will never desert us, no matter how bad we get; the Israelites have already tested the limits for us. It reminds us of our need to focus on our spiritual lives. We hear God threatening punishments, plagues, and destruction, and remember that the reason for these appearances is to wake us up! Love stands behind them--the Lord in His mercy is working to save us.

I know this answer will not be enough for the 'Franks' of the world, and if not then just consider that Gods ways are not mans ways, and Gods thoughts are not mans thoughts.....
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:33 pm
"Wake us up" by being a tyrant? What ever happened to "free will?" If you don't believe in me or what I say, you'll suffer in hell for eternity! This guys a nut case.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:17 pm
truth
The question, Where do we [as some kind of continuing thing] go after we die? is about as meaningful as the question "Where did we [as some kind of proto-thing] come from when we were born?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:29 pm
micah wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am describing the god of the Bible. god is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengeful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster. In fact, that's really giving the god the benefit of the doubt.


The Old Testament reminds us to stand in awe of our God. It reminds us of His infinite control, and the means at His disposal. It reminds us that He will never desert us, no matter how bad we get; the Israelites have already tested the limits for us. It reminds us of our need to focus on our spiritual lives. We hear God threatening punishments, plagues, and destruction, and remember that the reason for these appearances is to wake us up! Love stands behind them--the Lord in His mercy is working to save us.

I know this answer will not be enough for the 'Franks' of the world, and if not then just consider that Gods ways are not mans ways, and Gods thoughts are not mans thoughts.....



You are in major denial, Micah.

You are allowing your fear of this boogeyman to shortcircuit your ability to reason.
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