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Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 02:52 pm
HOLY CRAP ..... A COMPLIMENT!!!!

I remember it well, Tibet, I had two months left in my rotation in the monastery, he was a drop out .... gave me a really nice pair of Nike airs. It was just about then the indians decided to attack ... I knew my only chance was to make it to the river, my onlyl weapon my Bowie knife ... I made a run for it carving my way through a living wall of flesh .... dragging my canoe behind me ..... it was terrible terrible!!!
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 05:20 pm
A divine whisper is to me, different of my imagination. I am aware when I am using my imagination. Consciously aware of using it. Whereas the divine whisper is not me. The comforter that whispers to me is not me. Since we have limited words and limited imaginations, how can I describe God and his Holy Spirit. Nothing that will suffice until you have the experience yourself. It whispers more truth than you could even imagine with your own thoughts.

God existing outside of our small 3 dimensional world is not capable of coming into our world. He must send a manifestation of himself. Never has God been seen by a man. Only when we are spirits will we be able to see God. No man can see God and live. Flesh and blood cannot see God.

The Bible states in heaven there will be no need for the sun, (that will be gone), for his glory will give us light. God is even more glorious in physics and brillance and wonder, than the sun.

Do you doubt when MLK said, "I have seen the promised land." Only spirit can see what flesh and blood cannot. MLK was a born again Christian, Bible believing soldier for Jesus. He has seen the glory. Why , because the mission he had was Holy Spirit guided and taught.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 07:32 pm
Ruach, hello and welcome. The God you describe is one of great power and magnificence. The classic descripition of God's relationship with man is one in which man is granted neverending life in exchange for man's worship of God. It is said that God's wish is for 'companionship from man and that God wants the relationship to be one of free will, man's worship of God must be of man's choice. Isn't it disingenuous to grant free will and then to demand worship or death?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 08:26 pm
There's something illogical about "free will, worship or death." It's not only death. It's eternal hell.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 09:13 pm
Ruach wrote:
God existing outside of our small 3 dimensional world is not capable of coming into our world. He must send a manifestation of himself. Never has God been seen by a man. Only when we are spirits will we be able to see God. No man can see God and live. Flesh and blood cannot see God.


Ruach, what makes you think that you know anything about God or how he manifests?

According to the Bible, lots of people have seen God face to face and lived, including Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, 70 elders of Israel, Isaiah, Job and many others. Not to mention the thousands of people who saw God in the form of Jesus or angels.

Quote:
Genesis 32
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Exodus 24
9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, [clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Isaiah 6
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. … 5 "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 09:16 pm
And I see that Frank said the same thing on the previous page, which Ruach ignored and still insists that God cannot be seen.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 09:55 pm
I have a very good friend who appears to see himself as a prophet similar to the Biblical prophets. He converses with God all day long and lets himself be guided accordingly. When anyone blatantly wrongs somebody in his presence, he tells me that he does not wish any harm to the person, but he watches God's retribution quite often, in the form of illness, financial misfortune, etc. If God's in another dimension, he doesn't know about it.
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theollady
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 10:17 pm
As I read this, I passed on by.... twice. But I cannot leave this as you have asked, with no reply.
When God created Adam and Eve, He gave mankind dominion over the earth and every creeping thing. It was his to live in and enjoy.
This dominion was NOT honored, nor was the Creator, as Adam and Eve believed the words of Lucifer, the fallen angel, (devil, Satan, whatever you want to call him, he is the father of LIES). Satan took this power to rule 'this world' from man.
His use of this 'dominion' over "principalities and powers of the air" has caused men DEATH as God warned, since that time.
There had been NO problem with 'free will' nor any other prevailing emotion but worshipful Love for this AWESOME and LOVING God.
As Adam and Eve realized how they had disobeyed Him, they hid themselves and were ashamed... (the same way we do now, when we have hurt ones we love here on earth).
There is no deceit, no lack of LOVE, nor changability in the Lord God.
Men brought the processes of death, and evil and hatred upon themselves, God did not do it.
How can the man of the creation look upward to a Holy God, and ask WHY HAVE YOU MADE ME THUS?

I do not count myself worthy to be called an 'authority' on the Bible.
But I read it a lot, and have heard scripture expounded for many years. There are times I do NOT believe people are sincere. There are times I feel they interpret what the prophets said in a manner that is inconsistent with what the Spirit of God meant.
But I understand what Rauch is saying. God is a Spirit. Those things He reveals to us are SPIRITUAL, and we will not 'live' them in our flesh.

Now, I know what it is to give away 'emotional control'. Anyone who has ever fallen in LOVE, has given of themselves so freely-- they are in the power of the one they love and have given themselves to. If they make a mistake, surely they can and will be forgiven- and can go on to make new choices. But friends, that does not mean they are forever free of consequences of their actions. And should they expect and TEACH that to come to the Lord and Repent In Jesus Name, will bring them back (physically) to the sparkling place they were before they embarked on this 'choice of love'?
View it from a standpoint of understanding: A young lady decides she will become an ice skater. Years go by, and she does very well, recovering always from her falls and mistakes. But one day, she crashes into another's sharp blade, cutting a tendon necessary for her leg muscle to perform properly. So-
she can never skate again. She is a cripple, with a brace on her leg.
TWO scenarios: she becomes bitter. Sits a cries, takes anti-depressants, and grows old full of anger and friendless, practically.
Or
she gets well, trains in a good job sitting, makes many friends and goes on to marry and become a good mother. etc etc.
Now, either way---- her leg is crippled. She can NEVER take that back despite any "feelings" she has, whether they be 'religious', earthly;
kind or heartless--- the leg has BEEN CRIPPLED.
So many persons who preach and say they practice Christianity- (which is an endeavor to be like Christ, in your spirit-- never hesitating just because you make mistakes, and never judging others!) are really practicing a 'ritual'.
Loving Christ and thanking Him daily for our Salvation, is NOT a ritual- nor is it forced. You either want to do it or you don't. And WHY does it bother others that a GLORIOUS JOY lives in those who believe and accept it?
What I want to say, is that arguments and discussions are not going to change truth. And my replies here, are not going to change you all.
That is not WHY I replied.
I just wanted you to reread the Bible you are quoting, and see that God does not stand over His Creation scowling "Love me or Die". Nor does He come to "resolve" our earthly problems every time we yell out "God, I have fallen and I can't get up!" Rolling Eyes
There is SO much more to Him than that. He is EASY to love- and loving is the easiest thing I have ever done.
Goodnight.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 10:20 pm
Goodnight, Lou.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 07:37 am
I know these remarks were not directed to me, but I would like to share my thoughts on them.


theollady wrote:
As I read this, I passed on by.... twice. But I cannot leave this as you have asked, with no reply.
When God created Adam and Eve, He gave mankind dominion over the earth and every creeping thing. It was his to live in and enjoy.
This dominion was NOT honored, nor was the Creator, as Adam and Eve believed the words of Lucifer, the fallen angel, (devil, Satan, whatever you want to call him, he is the father of LIES). Satan took this power to rule 'this world' from man.
His use of this 'dominion' over "principalities and powers of the air" has caused men DEATH as God warned, since that time.
There had been NO problem with 'free will' nor any other prevailing emotion but worshipful Love for this AWESOME and LOVING God.
As Adam and Eve realized how they had disobeyed Him, they hid themselves and were ashamed... (the same way we do now, when we have hurt ones we love here on earth).
There is no deceit, no lack of LOVE, nor changability in the Lord God.
Men brought the processes of death, and evil and hatred upon themselves, God did not do it.
How can the man of the creation look upward to a Holy God, and ask WHY HAVE YOU MADE ME THUS?


Yeah, yah.

Some start, "Once upon a time..." -- some start, "In the beginning..."

Same thing.

You completely left out the parts about "Whose been sleeping in my bed?" - and "My, what big teeth you have, Grandma."



Quote:
Loving Christ and thanking Him daily for our Salvation, is NOT a ritual- nor is it forced.


It may not be forced, but it sure as hell is a ritual.


Quote:
You either want to do it or you don't. And WHY does it bother others that a GLORIOUS JOY lives in those who believe and accept it?


Mostly it doesn't. But when people come onto an Internet forum to discuss it, it gets discussed.

By the way -- I honestly know as many gloriously joyous agnotics and atheists as I do gloriously joyous religious folks. I know much, much fewer miserable, frightened agnostics and atheists than I do miserable, frightened religious people.




Quote:
What I want to say, is that arguments and discussions are not going to change truth.



That is correct, but we are discussing the Bible and religion here, and what does that have to do with "the truth?"



Quote:
I just wanted you to reread the Bible you are quoting, and see that God does not stand over His Creation scowling "Love me or Die". Nor does He come to "resolve" our earthly problems every time we yell out "God, I have fallen and I can't get up!" There is SO much more to Him than that.


I'll say there is. He is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengenful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster.

Hey, but what the heck. Nobody is perfect!


Quote:
He is EASY to love- and loving is the easiest thing I have ever done.


Good for you. And if you want to discuss that point, you've certainly come to the right place.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 08:25 am
Fwank, shhhhhh you'we supposed to be vewy vewy qwiet when hunting chwistians! Laughing
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 09:04 am
Oooops!

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Eva
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 09:37 am
RUN, Lou!!!!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 10:57 am
Quote:
"He is EASY to love- and loving is the easiest thing I have ever done."

Many say the same about GWBush even though he aggressively attacked a country that was not a threat to the American People, and killed upwards of 20,000 people - of which half were innocent men, women and children.

He did more than revenge the twin towers of NYC, he killed many more innocent people, and he calls himself a christian. Makes some of us want to puke.
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theollady
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 01:36 pm
C.I. Puullleeeeesssse, do not use GWBush's name in the same sentence with God, when you are discussing 'deeds and actions'--- or thoughts, or any OTHER thing.

If GWB (or his Dad or Mother, or brothers) were very in Love with God, Honesty, Purity, Hope and Trust... I seriously doubt they would be in Political office. But that is for God to adjudge, not me.

I would rather do as Paul did, Eva. He said when you have done all to stand, then STAND THEREFORE... (emphasis mine) so I don't run away.

However, I do not strive either. God doesn't need me to defend Him, so I have no comment otherwise.
Good day.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 02:13 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
I just wanted you to reread the Bible you are quoting, and see that God does not stand over His Creation scowling "Love me or Die". Nor does He come to "resolve" our earthly problems every time we yell out "God, I have fallen and I can't get up!" There is SO much more to Him than that.


I'll say there is. He is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengenful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster.

Hey, but what the heck. Nobody is perfect!


What gives Frank? You have quite an opinion on God for such a devout agnostic...
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 06:51 am
Frank, why be so doggon subtle? Say what you mean.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 07:23 am
McGentrix wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
I just wanted you to reread the Bible you are quoting, and see that God does not stand over His Creation scowling "Love me or Die". Nor does He come to "resolve" our earthly problems every time we yell out "God, I have fallen and I can't get up!" There is SO much more to Him than that.


I'll say there is. He is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengenful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster.

Hey, but what the heck. Nobody is perfect!


What gives Frank? You have quite an opinion on God for such a devout agnostic...


Not sure of what a "devout agnostic" is, but do you suppose agnostics should not have opinions, for some reason?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 09:55 am
Well, Frank, it is my understanding that agnosticism is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God. As much as you go on and on about it, that makes me believe you are rather devout in your belief.

BUT, to then turn around and say "He is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengenful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster." makes me doubt the veracity of your claims to be so agnostic.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I was simply pointing out the hypocritical aspect of it all...
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 11:11 am
McGentrix wrote:
Well, Frank, it is my understanding that agnosticism is a belief related to the existence or non-existence of God.


Well, there's your problem, McG. You are already taking the agnostic position -- which essential is to say "I do not know and prefer not to guess" on certain questions -- and making that into a belief.

It isn't a belief. It is simply a statement of the truth.

On certain questions -- I simply do not know the answers. No "belief" involved there at all.

And, when I do not see compelling evidence upon which to make a reasonable guess, I just prefer not to make a guess." No "belief" involved there either.

So you are starting off on the wrong foot. You are depending upon your "understanding" of things - and your understanding is obviously flawed.


Quote:
As much as you go on and on about it, that makes me believe you are rather devout in your belief.


BUT, it is impossible to be "devout in one's belief" if there is no "belief." Talk with someone about that - I'm sure you will find someone who can explain it to you.



Quote:
BUT, to then turn around and say "He is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengeful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster." makes me doubt the veracity of your claims to be so agnostic.


Well, I suspect that has to do with the limits of your ability to "understand" things rather than anything I've said or done.

I am describing the god of the Bible. There is absolutely no reason to claim I cannot know what the god of the Bible is like. There is a very thorough description of what the god of the Bible says and does in the first five books of the Bible -- and any reasonable reading of that information leads one to see that the god is a murderous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengeful, jealous, tyrannical, barbaric, petty monster. In fact, that's really giving the god the benefit of the doubt.

So I am not sure of what your problem is -- other than the aforementioned limited ability to understand and comprehend.



Quote:
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I was simply pointing out the hypocritical aspect of it all...


You are correct -- I am entitled to my opinion -- and you certainly are entitled to show that your ability to understand things and comprehend things is very limited.

It is so nice to end one of these conversations on a note of agreement, McG.
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