Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

Ge, I suspect we are shoulder to shoulder in saying that allof the gods currently worshipped are almost surely inventions of humans minds.

You gotta bear with me here, Ge, I'm an agnostic -- and I simply cannot truthfully say that I KNOW the gods do not exist. I have got to word things as per my personal philosophy.

This was a much better post. I understood you here. That last one I guessed at -- and missed by a mile.

Thanks for the quick answer.

cav- you 'sound' like the only one here who has faith in a higher power (God), but I may be wrong.

It's interesting that there are those of you who swallow the concept of "spiritual" things easily, but choke at the concept of an original, or ultimate spirit. Do you think that concept eludes some of us because of our tremendous, never-satisfied egos, which won't tolerate the idea of an omnipotent being (IMO belief in an invisible God requires some degree of humility)?

Also, what do you think (alot of deep thinkers here, so I know I'll get an answer) about the concept of "faith" Do you acknowledge faith in anything, besides the tangible, or quantifiable?

It seems to me that "faith" entails giving up some logic and accepting inconsistencies in the bible. c.i.

I'd really be interested in an answer to my questions. Do you have faith in anything?

Why can some here accomodate "spirituality", but not "God"?

Do you agree that faith in God involves a humility that some aren't capable of?
(that last one probably won't go over that well)

As intelligent as everyone here is, this subject has been debated very well by even more intelligent people through the years. A good case can be made both ways: for a God (heaven, hell, etc.) or against. But logic alone will not solve the debate.

It all boils down to what you choose to believe.

Personally, I have seen too much that defies logic, science & reason to believe that these alone rule the universe. Yes, I believe in a Supreme Intelligence (God, if you will.) And I believe that if there is intelligent life beyond earth, that Intelligence may have revealed itself in different ways on different worlds. I have observed that in order for human beings to understand things, they feel a need to anthropomorphize them. And I believe this is why it was necessary for the Intelligence to manifest itself in human form at some point. Because we couldn't have understood "God" well any other way.

I define Heaven and Hell as the state of being aware of God's presence or unaware of God's presence, hence both can occur here as well as in an afterlife. (Although without the limitations of a physical body, we should be able to identify spirit more clearly.)

My understanding of Christianity...my "faith," if you will...is not based on repetition of childhood stories or someone else's interpretation of the Bible. I try to read it with fresh eyes. The older I get, the more sense it all makes, but I don't expect I will ever understand all of it in my lifetime.

Yes, snood, I have faith in a lot of things. Both seen and unseen. Because I know there is more to life than logic.

Does a leap of faith require humility?

I wouldn't choose humility .... maybe.

There is just too much slop in the mechanics, too many unanswerable question for me to go on blind faith.
If you want my money you have to sell me.

It just seems so arrogant to me that men think that if they haven't discovered it at the end of a telescope, microscope, or theorem, then God doesn't exist.

God
I was raised in the Baptist faith. Born in a tar paper coal miner's shanty in Buchanan county Virginia. My parents carried their possessions in a feed mill sack. Almost all of dad's earnings went back to the coal company for rent and food. Mom was a midwife working for 'whatever ya got', which was usually a chicken or canned goods from the garden.

These were my humble beginnings, cross off humility.
I have no faith in God because I see no reason for his existence. Going a bit further it is fine with me if he has no faith in me. Moreover we are told that we are to love God or suffer the consequences ..... hell I'll give you a hug, just don't threaten me.

What I do have faith in is my personal spirit, If I need advice, strength, or just a voice to reassure me, I look inward.

Could it be that the spirit has been mislabeled as 'God'?
I believe that when I smile that last smile I will have my answer and that answer will render the question redundant.

For arguments sake, let's assume for the moment that there is a master programmer in the heavens (God). Who created THAT entity? A higher God? And who created THAT God? You could go on an on ad infinitum. As far as I am concerned, what is, is.

Am I arrogant? I don't think so. I think that the people who are arrogant are those who have developed an entire belief system based on nothing but faith, which to me, is the denial of reason. Then they become miffed when rational people won't go along with their concept.

Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?

And his disciples answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.

And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?

Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple."

And Jesus answering, said, "What?"

Yes, snood, exactly. However, the very fact that we have been able to detect patterns and orders in our world proves to me that all is not chaos, that there is an intelligence behind it. I do not presume that I am able to understand everything about this intelligence...it is obviously higher than my own. But it is just as obviously there.

Faith is not the denial of reason. It is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Do you have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning? True, you've seen it happen every day, but it takes faith to believe that it will continue to happen. That faith is not irrational. It took me a long time to separate what I had been TOLD about God as a child from what I had experienced of God as an adult. There is something deeply flawed about any religious group that expects you to check your brain at the door.

C. S. Lewis would say that if you place your highest trust in your own mind, then you have made yourself into your god. Surely there is some force out there bigger than ourselves. There is too much order in the universe, and we are just beginning to decipher it all.

Visitor, not mind ....spirit.
There is a huge difference.

Visitor- IMO, your example is not an example of faith. We know enough about science that we can say with CONFIDENCE that the sun WILL rise tomorrow. If one of the clergy told you that the sun WOULDN'T rise tomorrow, and you believed him, THAT would be faith.

or that the sun could be stopped in mid course

Most don't.

Most intelligent people realize that it cannot be found at the end of a telescope, microscope, or theorem -- and say the obvious:

I do not KNOW if gods exist or not. THEY MAY. THEY MAY NOT.

For someone to say without reservation: A GOD exists -- is absurd in the face of the fact that it appears we simply cannot KNOW that.

For someone to say without reservation: THERE ARE NO GODS -- is just as absurd in the face of the fact that it appears we simply cannot KNOW that.

The only logical and ethical response to this situation is to acknowledge that WE DO NOT KNOW EITHER WAY.

FAITH in either direction is not a virtue by any stretch of the imagination -- and everyone should be tired of the people who argue that it is.

Hate to burst your bubble, Frank, but not all intelligent people are agnostics. I'm hoping you weren't insulting me there.

I do believe in logic and reason, but I have also experienced things that make perfect sense in an illogical way. Haven't you?

Man's description of god does not exist. Therefore, god does not exist. c.i.

Why would that burst my bubble? What make you suppose I think all intelligent people are agnostics?





I have no idea of what you are referencing here. I responded to what Snood wrote -- and I truly don't even know what you wrote that might pertain to my comments.



Perhaps you could give us an example of what you are talking about here. I have no reason to suppose you are not logical or reasonable -- but I do not understand what you mean about experiencing things that make perfect sense in an illogical way. If you explain it, I'll answer your question.

<<Most intelligent people realize that it cannot be found at the end of a telescope, microscope, or theorem -- and say the obvious: I do not KNOW if gods exist or not.>>

That sounded like you were saying "most intelligent people say, 'I do not KNOW if gods exist or not.'" Ipso facto, agnosticism. But perhaps that is not what you meant.

FYI, my father was agnostic, so I was raised in that environment. But I later found it very hollow. I am searching my memory for a good example for your last question that would sum it all up.

This doesn't express it all, but it's a start. True story. I have good friends who have a 7-yr.-old son with a malignant, inoperable brain tumor. No doctor they could find would give them any course of treatment. They went to M.D. Anderson (best cancer hospital in the U.S., in Houston) and were told there is one doctor who knows about this type of cancer, but he doesn't treat children and besides, he's on sabbatical this year, and they won't try to reach him. So they dismissed the idea. But they continued to pray for someone who could help. Two days later they receive a phone call from this same doctor's nurse. She has picked up the child's name off an internet prayer chain in Virginia. (Halfway across the country from where the child lives.) The nurse has called the doctor in Europe, and he is coming back. They have an appointment with him by the end of the week. He prescribes an experimental course of treatment, and the cancer stops growing.

Okay. Some would call this simple luck, but whatever you have faith in, you have to admit it is a nearly unbelievable set of coincidences. Somehow, it makes sense even if it isn't logical.

Now, one story like this could be coincidence, but I have seen this type of thing happen over and over and over again.

P.S. to Phoenix...I would say you have "faith" in science.

Visitor, There are many incidences in life that goes beyond what we consider "luck." Some people live through disasters that can't be explained in human terms. Some people will surely translate those as god's gift. I'm of the opinion that that's all part of nature. c.i.