Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

In the meantime...

....just in case anyone else listening in can help me out...

...what do you suppose Ge' wants me to do here?

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Hi Terry,

Terry wrote:

Perhaps it would not be correct to say that we "experience" anything if there is no awareness at the time, but death is often likened to dreamless sleep.

I guess that's more what I was suggesting... that we can't "experience" lack of awareness. Even the states you suggest are just blank spots between bouts of awareness. Based on our knowledge of neural structures it seems likely that death is just an endless state of non-awareness; something nobody can "experience", and therefor not really comprehend.

Best Regards,

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Terry wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
To me there is an afterlife and I say this with a certainty that I can prove to any doubter. Those that doubt can not be convinced by logic, they can only be convinced by actually experiencing the fact so, if there are any that choose to dispute my certainty please cooperate by dropping dead.

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(the full quote) :To me there is an afterlife and I say this with a certainty that I can prove to any doubter. Those that doubt can not be convinced by logic, they can only be convinced by actually experiencing the fact so, if there are any that choose to dispute my certainty please cooperate by dropping dead. Since the validity of your certainy, is only meaningful to you, the doubter, (Christ did not appear to convince everyone) it is a journey that you will have to take alone, for your own satisfaction so, whenever you are ready, bon voyage.
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lol No thanks. If you are wrong and I am right, I will have given up all of the wonderful things I have yet to experience in this life.

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Your argument supports my point of view. If there is an afterlife you will be able to keep all the "wonderful things I have yet to experience in this life" .... if there is only death ....
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Terry: What makes you think that "souls" exist indepently of bodies?
Doug: Why wouldn't they? Do you consider mind and brain to be the same?

No, mind is created by biochemical processes in the physical brain.

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I can accept that .... of course that begs the question of 'what is the form and function of the mind'?
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The 'pea pod. analogy pertains to:
"Do they really think that a mind ravished by disease/dementia will be magically restored to full functioning when the body dies?"
You left it off when you quoted me. Does the soul leave the body when the physical or shell dies?

Terry

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No, the mind/soul cannot exist independently of the physical brain that creates it. Neuroscience is pretty convincing on this point.

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Mind/soul are the same and can not exist outside the brain, which places them inside the physical body. Is their composition then considered flesh and bone? If other please explaine
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We know that people with damage to the brain (from disease, stroke, or injury) lose certain functions depending on which part is damaged. Speech, personality, volition (free will), memory, or other functions may be gone. If someone can never learn anything new, where is their allegedly immortal soul? In cold storage until they die?

How do you think that memories are stored and recalled if there are no physical circuits? By magic?

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I will grant you that memories are not duplicated, but the brain is developed according to the gene's instructions.

Terry

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Yes, but the instructions are general.

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I would think that blonde hair and blue eyes or the deep pigmentation of a black person would entail a great deal of specificity.
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Terry

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It is not just memories that depend on nurture, but the brain itself. The exact way that the brain develops depends on environment and experiences which cannot be duplicated in your clone. For instance, a child who takes music lessons will have more neural circuits devoted to the hearing functions of the brain.

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If my clone takes twice the amount of music lessons and has a more acute sense of hearing, then what?
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Exposure to lead can cause permanently damage. There may be unsuspected toxins in its food, air, and water which affect brain development.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

In the meantime...

....just in case anyone else listening in can help me out...

...what do you suppose Ge' wants me to do here?

Who said this:

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Frankly, there are no questions you pose that are that difficult to deal with -- even if you want to kid yourself into thinking there are.

BTW ... who's there?

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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Okay, ya got me.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Okay, ya got me.

How do I know you don't have your fingers crossed? All I can see is your head.
Repeat after me .... cross my heart and hope to die, :wink: stick a needle in my eye .... I saw a little bird in the sky, it put some white wash in my eye ... I'm a big boy I don't cry, I'm just glad that cows don't fly .....

I guess my mind wandered a bit there

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Okay, ya got me.

How do I know you don't have your fingers crossed? All I can see is your head.
Repeat after me .... cross my heart and hope to die, :wink: stick a needle in my eye .... I saw a little bird in the sky, it put some white wash in my eye ... I'm a big boy I don't cry, I'm just glad that cows don't fly .....

I guess my mind wandered a bit there

Done!

Holy ****. My pants just went on fire. :wink:

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Jeez, did you guys get up early just to fight or what. Since last night there's almost like 2 and a half pages of more bickering. Sure is entertaining!

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truth
Wow, this must be the most prolific thread of all time; I've never seen so many posts on one threat in one day. Impossible to catch up.
But someone did use the interesting metaphor of a GATE that is passed through upon death. To me, it seems that when one passes through the gate of death, he does not come out on the other side "dead." NO-ONE comes out on the other side. In other words, there is no longer anyone to be in the state of "death", no-one to be in either a state of awareness or non-awareness. It is the most exotic condition imaginable (or unimaginable). I wish I could say I look forward to it, but "I" won't be there for the experience. But then again, "I" am not here for this experience either. There is just the experience. Aha, maybe that means that in death there is no-one to experience non-awareness; there is only non-awareness. Rolling Eyes

What a can of worms.

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It might be a whole casket of worms. Wink

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

Wow, this must be the most prolific thread of all time; I've never seen so many posts on one threat in one day. Impossible to catch up.
But someone did use the interesting metaphor of a GATE that is passed through upon death. To me, it seems that when one passes through the gate of death, he does not come out on the other side "dead." NO-ONE comes out on the other side. In other words, there is no longer anyone to be in the state of "death", no-one to be in either a state of awareness or non-awareness. It is the most exotic condition imaginable (or unimaginable). I wish I could say I look forward to it, but "I" won't be there for the experience. But then again, "I" am not here for this experience either. There is just the experience. Aha, maybe that means that in death there is no-one to experience non-awareness; there is only non-awareness. What a can of worms.

Awareness has to have a focus, something to be aware of. Time is everything occuring simultaneously thus blurring awareness of any distinct passage of a single event, all are experienced as one. Such is the world of the soul.
The physical human lives between the tick and tock of the clock. Not a physical location but a concept that can only be sensed. The "now' is my favorite term for it. Thoreau called it 'the brink of two eternities'.
If time were a stream and you stood in the middle of the stream looking forward you would be facing the future and, through the use of your physical senses be able to measure the changing face of the past to be. The passing of time is a focus the soul, through it's composition, is unable to witness, the passing of time can only be realized through the physical senses. To a soul there is no time, no birth, no death. Only pure consciousness.

Time keeper.

The memory of the physical is recorded by the soul and retained, not the actual occurence of a human event, but the sensation of the resultant sensory event is recorded, so to speak, increasing the souls awareness and speeding their ascension.

My fingers are tired, someone refute me or agree or something.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Okay, ya got me.

How do I know you don't have your fingers crossed? All I can see is your head.
Repeat after me .... cross my heart and hope to die, :wink: stick a needle in my eye .... I saw a little bird in the sky, it put some white wash in my eye ... I'm a big boy I don't cry, I'm just glad that cows don't fly .....

I guess my mind wandered a bit there

Done!

Holy ****. My pants just went on fire. :wink:

Come on Frank, you can't be that hot .... spontaneous combustion, really.

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Once we are able to understand time and space, we'll understand 49 percent of what life is all about. Wink

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After death,

I don't know if it has been mentioned, right now I am too tired to go back and read all the posts from the start.

Einstein believed and stated and it has been accepted that energy cannot be destroyed, but it can only be changed into another state.

We know the human body consists of an electrical energy. You can feel it when you are around people or even if you are not looking and someone is looking at you.

This electrical field/energy/soul/spirit/chi/etc. has to go somewhere.
I have always believed that GOd does control the breath of Life and the spirit of the person. I think our spirits/energy/etc. return back to the author of us=God.

We can see with our own eyes that the body rots.

We cannot see with our own eyes the spirit/energy force, after it leaves the dead body.

But too many life after death experiences that people report on state they lift from their own body and can see their dead body below them.

Then they find very quickly that they are either in the presence of a great light and love Laughing

or
in the presence of darkness and evil/torment. Twisted Evil

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Ah, more fodder for the Frankster.

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truth
Gel, I agree that "awareness" must have a focus; we say "being aware of something." But that "something" may be a very broad, flowing, indistinct and ambiguous experience. Your use of "pure consciousness" is interesting if detached from the theological notion of soul. Pure consciousness or passive awareness cannot be the object of awareness because we ARE that awareness. It is not an object of attention itself, as Tywvel, on other threads, has observed.
By the way, I've said somewhere else, here or on abuzz, that I prefer the metaphor for time of a pond to that of a stream. A stream has an upstream, standing for the future, and a downstream, standing for the past. This model permits fantasy notions of time travel: the traveler in a boat, in the position of "now", can jump to shore and run in the direction of upstream, to the future, or in the direction of downstream, to the past. He can do this because the metaphor provides for it; it describes upstream as up there waiting for him (the same with downstream). In other words it reifies time, making it a solid thing/place in the world. The metaphor of the pond, depicts a man in the middle of the pond, in the "now" with no place to go. He's always in the NOW, but the surface of the pond is always changing. Change, in this model, does not go from a reified past to a reified future. It is always a changing now. I think that is more realistic, more descriptive of actual experience--Einstein notwithstanding.

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edgarblythe wrote:

Ah, more fodder for the Frankster.

Nah...Ruash is selectively blind. He sees what he wants to see.

Explaining the other alternatives to his self-serving scenario (ohhh, nice alliteration) is tantamount to pissing into the wind.

What the hell. If it makes him happy........

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edgarblythe wrote:

Ah, more fodder for the Frankster.

I hope so Edgar, without the honorable oppposition there is no game. One can bitch about the style of play on either side but truth is it would soon become very boring with only one side presented.

En Garde Smile

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touche, with one of those funny little things on the e.

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Everyone appears to be talking about the same things this morning so I think I'll pose a question, mostly in aanswer to JL. This for Frank: is it better to piss into the wind or up a rope?

The fourth dimension is thought by some to be time. Time defined is linear with, for us three dimensional creatures, a past, present and future. Would I be in error to describe the fourth dimension as time existing as undefined with the past, present and future existing simultaneously thereby negating the restraints of time travel ..... this would reduce time to a 'capacity.'
What say ye to my ravings.

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Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

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