belief in an afterlife
In my last post I brought up the point that the belief in an afterlife is virtually universal. This would point towards a biological commonality rather than a cultural or religious one.
And that which all humans above the age of infancy share is self realization. A look into the mirror (or glazed surface such as a still pond) produces an image that is recognized as self. The animals, with exception of a few of the higher species, and human infants do not grasp this and perceive the image as other than self.
I think that this is very germane because once the notion of self is accepted as a reality, then it becomes impossible to conceive of an existence in which that self does not exist --at least in times prior to deliberations such as this one. For most of human history religious ideas, at least within societies, were not as challenged as they are today as the science was not there to make the challenge.
Yet the human intellect is well aware of the reality of death. Therefore, in order to make sense of these two conflicting observations, the rationalization of a self or "soul" that continues after death must have been conceived.
In addition to this speculated beginning, the following challenges need to be examined.
First, the notion of the reality of self is universally taken for granted. "I think therefore I am." But what "I" are we talking about? I am not the same "I" that I was as an infant, nor as a small child nor as an adolescent nor as a young adult nor even as the adult I was just ten years ago. And I may not be the same "I" in another ten years. I may be wiser or, due to accident or disease, I may be a lesser "I" than I am now.
So which "I" are we thinking is going to be finalized for all of eternity? The best one? The last one? Or do we think much about that at all?
I and others have concluded something very different. Because the "I" is constantly changing, it must have no fixed or essential reality. Instead it must be an illusion. And if it is illusion, then it is foolish to attach to it an eternal value.
Another approach is the analysis of ego. Ego is defined by the past, unable to enjoy the present and can only find fulfillment in the future. (Ken Wilber "Spectrum of Consciousness") This would explain two things. Why the reduction of ego by techniques such as meditation leads to happiness. And, of interest here, the hoped for super fulfillment to beat all fulfillments - the concept of heaven itself.
There are loads of stories about people who have died (ie stopped breathing and heart stopped beating but actually been OK) or nearly died and they talk about
experiences of death that they had.
One guy said he had been
nearly drowning and then he had found himself somewhere warm and homely talking with someone who loved him and gave him the choice of carrying on and aking life better or ending it. He chose to go back.
Writing it on the internet gave him no glory, so the way see it, it either really happened to him or he is a bit mad. having read it I have to confess I am inclined to believe the former.
P.S.
Main points highlighted in blue so that readers with little time can scan it and choose whether or not to read it
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I believe it Seeker ... I've heard many stories like that, there are books upon books about people who have died and came back to life, so what's not to believe.
Ijust posed this question on another thread .... any answers here?
Gelisgesti wrote:Let me have a go at it from this direction ... proving the existance of a soul.
The human body is made up of the following;
96.2% of body weight comes from "organic elements" present in many different forms. DNA, RNA proteins, lipids and sugars are all composed of primarily O, C, H and N. Also, Water (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2)as well as other small molecules involve these elements.
Oxygen (65.0%)
Carbon (18.5%)
Hydogen (9.5%)
Nitrogen (3.2%)
Calcium (1.5%)
Phosphorus (1.0%)
Potassium (0.4%)
Sulfur (0.3%)
Sodium (0.2%
Chlorine (0.2%)
Magnesium (0.1%)
Iodine (0.1%)
Iron (0.1%)
Chromium (trace)
Cobalt (trace)
Copper (trace)
Fluorine (trace)
Manganese (trace)
Molybdenum (trace)
Selenium (trace)
Tin (trace)
Vanadium (trace)
Zinc (trace)
Do any of these ingredients, separately or in combination, grant the body 'animation'?
Doug, good to see you back here.
Lobsters are made up of pretty much the same elements we are. We are all born of stardust, the remnants of first and second generation stars that burned the lighter elements and spewed out heavy metals in their death throes. When we die the chemicals in our bodies are recycled into new organisms, perhaps someday to return to the stars.
Not that I think lobsters have souls. My guess is that souls, if such exist, are generated by patterns of information in the brains of higher mammals. We know that personality and intelligence are affected by trauma to the parts of the brain which produce the patterns. If there is a soul, it must be inextricably linked with them also and could not survive the death of the brain.
On the other hand, most people claim that souls are immaterial and are independent of the body, perhaps to float freely about the universe when they are finally untethered from the flesh that nurtured them. Who knows?
Terry wrote:Doug, good to see you back here.
Lobsters are made up of pretty much the same elements we are. We are all born of stardust, the remnants of first and second generation stars that burned the lighter elements and spewed out heavy metals in their death throes. When we die the chemicals in our bodies are recycled into new organisms, perhaps someday to return to the stars.
Not that I think lobsters have souls. My guess is that souls, if such exist, are generated by patterns of information in the brains of higher mammals. We know that personality and intelligence are affected by trauma to the parts of the brain which produce the patterns. If there is a soul, it must be inextricably linked with them also and could not survive the death of the brain.
On the other hand, most people claim that souls are immaterial and are independent of the body, perhaps to float freely about the universe when they are finally untethered from the flesh that nurtured them. Who knows?
Somehow Terry, I knew you would be there .... our souls are inextricably entangled, as is each soul we recognize in our ascension. You look at star dust with understanding and a pinch of wonderment, there was a time when all you sensed was met with wonderment, as is with us all. The soul is made of inquisitiveness (maybe not a word but I think it paints an adequate picture) and that leads to the ascension / promotion of the soul.
Question ... which is the lobster, the exoskeleton it sheds and walks away from, or the stuff we dip in butter.... or, somethin we see but in ignorance do not recognize?
Good to read you again.
The shell isn't the lobster, the flesh dipped in butter isn't the lobster, the lobster is a changing conjunction of molecules that somehow work together to form a living organism. Is there some eternal spirit that animates lobsters and will spend eternity blissfully swimming through the Milky Way after it is boiled alive, dismembered, and its tastiest molecules incorporated into a new body? I don't think so. But I still hope for the Paradise that is so easy to imagine and so hard to believe in.
Quotations from Shui-ch'ing Tzu
The gate that gives me life is the gate that gives me death. Only a few understand this intuitively.
Any thoughts on this?
truth
Gelisgesti, what an interesting quote. All I can get from it, though, is that the "gate" might refer to the "passage" from life to death and from before life to life. Notice that I could not find a single word for before life. The "afterlife" is commonly used because we think much about death. About what it will be like after we die. But who thinks about what our "beforelife" (to coin a word) was like? Could it be that it is not seen as a problem because it's over with or because there was no self then. But as I see it there will be no self after we die, and therefore there will be no "state of death" for anyone. Death will not be a condition of a "self", since that supposedly ends when we die. But, as some of you already know, I don't think there is a self even now.
Suppose that through bizzare crcumstances , at the age of five, you were denied your reflection, then at the age of sixty, you are handed a mirror. What reaction would you have to what you see in the mirror?
Read this twice before you answer.
Quotations from Teresa of Avila)
I began to think of the soul as if it were a castle made of a single diamond or of very clear crystal, in which there are many rooms, just as in Heaven there are many mansions {cf. John 14:2}. Now if we think carefully over this, sisters, the soul of the righteous man is nothing but a paradise, in which, as God tells us, He takes His delight {cf. Proverbs 8:31}. For what do you think a room will be like which is the delight of a King so mighty, so wise, so pure and so full of all that is good? I can find nothing with which to compare the great beauty of a soul and its great capacity. In fact, however acute our intellects may be, they will no more be able to attain to a comprehension of this than to an understanding of God; for, as He Himself says, He created us in His image and likeness {cf. Genesis 1:26}... {Yet} all our interest is centered in the rough setting of the diamond, and in the outer wall of the castle -- that is to say, in these bodies of ours.
(pp. 28-29, First Mansions, Chapter 1, Paragraphs 1, 2}
... if this castle is the soul, there can clearly be no question of our entering it. For we ourselves are the castle: and it would be absurd to tell someone to enter a room when he was in it already! But you must understand that there are many ways of "being" in a place. Many souls remain in the outer court of the castle, which is the place occupied by the guards; they are not interested in entering it, and have no idea what there is in that wonderful place, or who dwells in it, or even how many rooms it has. You will have read certain books on prayer which advise the soul to enter within itself: and that is exactly what this means.
(p. 31, First Mansions, Chapter 1, Paragraph 5)
... the door by which we can enter this castle is prayer. It is absurd to think that we can enter Heaven without first entering our own souls -- without getting to know ourselves, and reflecting upon the wretchedness of our nature and what we owe to God, and continually imploring His mercy.
(p. 53, Second Mansions, Chapter 1, paragraph 12)
You need know only one thing about {the soul in mortal sin} -- that, although the Sun Himself, Who has given it all its splendour and beauty, is still there in the center of the soul, it is as if He were not there for any participation which the soul has in Him, though it is as capable of enjoying Him as is the crystal of reflecting the sun... O souls redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ! Learn to understand yourselves and take pity on yourselves!
(p9. 33-35, First Mansions, Chapter 2, Paragraphs 1,4)
Consciousness of life gives us our awareness of mortality. Life is a prerequisite for death. I was going to say that just as there is no life without death, there is no death without life, but on reflection, organisms that reproduce by splitting never die. But since they have no brains, they cannot generate the consciousness that could appreciate their luck.
I hope that no one hands me a mirror when I am sixty. It's depressing enough to look in one now.
I like the passage about mansions, if you disregard the nonsense about blood, wretchedness, and begging for mercy. I wonder why so many people never even consider exploring the wondrous mansion of the mind.
Terry queried:
Quote:I wonder why so many people never even consider exploring the wondrous mansion of the mind.
That is an easy one for me, Terry.
They do not explore for very long- until those around them want to send them somewhere for medication. Long ago, it was to a place Doug gave a link to, in his 'Just Whatever' thread.
I do not explore in my own mind anymore, for nothing I need is BORN there. However, I have some treasures and knowledge acquired down through the years of long existence--- and I now seek to keep thoughts active, for I do not wish to lose 'very many' brain cells to old age.
Use it or lose it is a TRUE adage.
A really GOOD interaction someone should make and discuss is the FACT that we do not
alone "CREATE, CHAMPION, INVENT, PARENT, OR DRAW FROM SELF" any of the talent or knowledge we display. It is merely the 'action and reaction' of our understanding, mixing and mingling with what we have heard, liked, detested, savored, wanted more of, etc, etc. I do not believe our minds come 'programmed'.
Not at all!! Their comprehension and output are generated by interaction and sharing, and experiencing.
So, exploring "mansions" would merely be reflecting on all we have buried there, in memory.
Terry wrote:Consciousness of life gives us our awareness of mortality. Life is a prerequisite for death. I was going to say that just as there is no life without death, there is no death without life, but on reflection, organisms that reproduce by splitting never die. But since they have no brains, they cannot generate the consciousness that could appreciate their luck.
I hope that no one hands me a mirror when I am sixty. It's depressing enough to look in one now.
I like the passage about mansions, if you disregard the nonsense about blood, wretchedness, and begging for mercy. I wonder why so many people never even consider exploring the wondrous mansion of the mind.
Terry, you danced all around it ... what I was going for with the mirror thing pertains to our duality of nature. If what I feel is true we have a body that is in a sense a living laboratory for the soul. Souls are entities composed of pure consciousness but lack focus in spiritual form. Only by passing through the gate of death can a soul live and only while in mortal form can a soul experience death ... and ascension.
Look to nature for the answers, without growth there is no life and the only direction flesh grows is old and through that gate is life renewed. We truly are 'animated clay'. To accept that notion is to grow.
A puzzle made difficult by it's simplicity.
I keep seeing this topic resuscitated. I am not really interested in probing all the ramifications. I just thought I would put my opinion on the record. Phoenix has already stated my core belief. When one dies the elements that came together and were you (or me) scatter, the complex joining of matter decayed, diffused, ultimately returned from whence it came. We don't apply the word "dead" to our dearly and not so dearly departed for nothing. It is an overt admission that someone is no longer a living being.
(Quotations from Teresa of Avila)
It is very important, sisters, that we should not think of the soul as of something dark. It must seem dark to most of us, as we cannot see it, for we forget that there is not only a light which we can see, but also an interior light, and so we think that within our soul there is some kind of darkness. Of the soul that is not in grace, I grant you, that is true -- not, however, from any defect in the Sun of Justice, Who is within it and is giving it being, but because ... this soul is not capable of receiving the light.
(pp. 207-208, Seventh Mansions, Chapter 1, Paragraph 3)
{In the Seventh Mansion} everything is different. Our good God now desires to remove the scales form the eyes of the soul, so that it may see and understand something of the favour which He is granting it, although He is doing this in a strange manner. It is brought into this Mansion by means of an intellectual vision, in which, by a representation of the truth in a particular way, the Most Holy Trinity reveals Itself, in all three Persons. ...The spirit becomes enkindled and is illumined, as it were, by a cloud of the greatest brightness.
(p. 209, Seventh Mansions, Chapter 1, Paragraph 6)
This Presence is not of course always realized so fully -- I mean so clearly -- as it is when it first comes, or on certain other occasions when God grants the soul this consolation; if it were, it would be impossible for the soul to think of anything else, or even to live among men. But although the light which accompanies it may not be so clear, the soul is always aware that it is experiencing this companionship {with God}.
(pp. 210-211, Seventh Mansions, Chapter 1, Paragraph 9)
For just as a great stream of water could never fall on us without having an origin somewhere, as I have said, just so it becomes evident that ... there is a sun whence this great light proceeds, which is transmitted to the faculties in the interior part of the soul.
(p. 216, Seventh Mansions, Chapter 2, Paragraph 6)
edgarblythe wrote:I keep seeing this topic resuscitated. I am not really interested in probing all the ramifications. I just thought I would put my opinion on the record. Phoenix has already stated my core belief. When one dies the elements that came together and were you (or me) scatter, the complex joining of matter decayed, diffused, ultimately returned from whence it came. We don't apply the word "dead" to our dearly and not so dearly departed for nothing. It is an overt admission that someone is no longer a living being.
Morning Edgar, Let me re-write your last sentence ... 'I't is an overt admission that someone has moved on to a different set of circumstances, leaving their shell and me behind to join once again with our personalties.'
So simple it is not worth rembering so the mechanism remains hidden in life to be revealed as it is lived just as the lessons of death can only be learned in dying.
God? God is patience. Not some 'cosmic muffin' ... just patience.
It's an over admission the person is no more. There's no way poetic expression can alter the fact. Sorry.
edgarblythe wrote:It's an over admission the person is no more. There's no way poetic expression can alter the fact. Sorry.
Can we agree that 'person' needs a definition?
Where I go when I die probably depends on where I fall.
