Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

TERRY, wonderful to read your face. Hope you visit more oft ten.

The eye, eye spy an eye. The I is the most powerful envisionment (word?) of the soul the clay can produce. Let's investigate the 'I' with a few 'wouldja's ......

Would you:

Keep he shell and throw away the chick?

keep the pod and throw away the seed?

keep the cocoon and throw away the moth?

(it gets trickier)

keep the violin and cast away the music?

keep the tears and throw away the lesson learned?

keep the joy, and throw away the laughter?

keep all that you are ...... and throw away the spirit?

keep the spirit ....... and throw away the God?

Is the 'I' the sum of all we are minus the shell?

----------------------------

Sleep, the little death ..... I did a thread about that subject on Abuzz.

As I remember, does the 'clay' sleep while the spirit (I) stands guard?
Or is it the other way around

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Re: a

Gelisgesti wrote:

Frank, swing and a miss ... I'm on the side that gives each person the right to their own reality, beliefs and Gods. Your's is the opinion that a person that cannot substantiate a faith or personal belief can go ahead and thtink that way but they are wrong....

Get with the program, Ge, I have never said anything like that.

A person can think, believe, suppose, estimate whatever he/she wants. A person can think, believe, suppose, estimate that elephants can be trained to pole vault if they want.

I am -- and always have been talking about people who make those kinds of guesses -- and then try to tout them as truths -- when there is absolutely no indication they are anything but guesses.

Dealing with Christians on this is almost impossible. They will argue from now to the end of time that they KNOW there is a God and that the God is described in the Bible.

You can try to talk reasonably with atheists about this, but they are absolutely convinced there is no way there can possibly be any gods.

You can try to deal with Twyvel on this -- but it is almost impossible because he is just as convinced he has the correct answers to reality.

The mental gymnastics you people are all going through to avoid simply acknowledging tht the nature of reality -- the nature of WHAT IS -- appears to be a mystery.

I defy anyone who claims to have private special knowledge of reality to PROVE that they special knowledge they say they have -- is not just self-delusion.

Quote:

or are you now saying that their guesses are not guesses but statement of facts? Can't have it both ways.

I don't even understand what you are asking here? Clarify it if it is a worthwhile question.

But don't think I am ever trying to have things "both ways." I am rock solid in my agnosticism.

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Frank, You're using the wrong modifier; "Dealing with Christians on this is almost impossible." It's not "almost." It "is" impossible. c.i.

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a

Quote:

Frank posted:

Gelisgesti wrote:
Frank, swing and a miss ... I'm on the side that gives each person the right to their own reality, beliefs and Gods. Your's is the opinion that a person that cannot substantiate a faith or personal belief can go ahead and thtink that way but they are wrong....

Get with the program, Ge, I have never said anything like that.

A person can think, believe, suppose, estimate whatever he/she wants. A person can think, believe, suppose, estimate that elephants can be trained to pole vault if the

Quote from Frank from a prior post to Twyvel:

Quote:

And I will continue to call your attention to the fact that you are expressing a belief here -- not a fact

Quote from Ge:

Quote:

Frank, if I may enter the fray .... to paraphrase ...... you believe that Twyvel's belief is belief and that your belief that his belief is belief is fact?
Am I correct?

Frank wrote:

Quote:

I defy anyone who claims to have private special knowledge of reality to PROVE that they special knowledge they say they have -- is not just self-delusion

Can you PROVE that your view of reality is more correct than anyone else's view?

Frank saidto Twyvel:

Quote:

Perhaps you would so kind as to point out where you got the idea that I am sharing a belief system.
What specifically are you saying that I "believe?"

Ge said:

Quote:

One obvious answer is that you believe you have the right to believe in your right to believe in what you believe is right to believe in.

Question .... do other people have that same right?

Could you answer my questions this time?

CI....huh?

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Frank wrote:

Quote:

You can try to talk reasonably with atheists about this, but they are absolutely convinced there is no way there can possibly be any gods.

You can try to deal with Twyvel on this -- but it is almost impossible because he is just as convinced he has the correct answers to reality.

The mental gymnastics you people are all going through to avoid simply acknowledging tht the nature of reality -- the nature of WHAT IS -- appears to be a mystery.

Talk about miss quoting and misunderstanding and misrepresenting.

I never, ever said that 'what is " is not a mystery.

It appears you have almost zero interest and/or capacity to grasp and/or understand what JLNobody and I have been saying.

Yet from that uninformed position you make unsupported accusations usually in the form of sweeping generalizations like in your comments above, rarely getting into details or specifics which I think pester you.

Fact is you don't know what you're talking about because of your vast lack of interest in regards to the nature of the "self" and/or "consciousness". That's fine, but don't pretend otherwise.

You're not interested Frank. Admit it.

Nothing wrong with that.

Quote:

I defy anyone who claims to have private special knowledge of reality to PROVE that they special knowledge they say they have -- is not just self-delusion.

I defy you to prove the chair your sitting on exists independent of your perceptions of it.

I defy you to prove you see the colour red.

I defy you to prove you're conscious.

I defy you to prove you have an 'internal" life, internal dialogue.

I defy you to prove you exist.

Quote:

But don't think I am ever trying to have things "both ways." I am rock solid in my agnosticism.

Rock solid..........sounds like a closed book.

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Not that I'm promoting violence here on A2K, but if I were to punch you in the nose, I'd think you'd acknowledge my existence.

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Ge and Twyvel

You are both so full of soup, I really don't want to take the time to respond, but I feel obligated.

Twyvel -- YOU KNOW that I have on dozens of occasions mentioned that I do NOT KNOW that you are guessing -- but that my guess is that you are guessing.

I have said that so many times, you really should be on my side in that dispute I'm having with Ge -- who apparently THINKS I am saying something that I am not saying.

In any case, whenever you make one of your proclamations about what reality is -- and what is real and what is only an illusion -- making it sound like you are sharing some great truth which has been revealed to you -- I snicker -- and call your attention to the fact that I AM GUESSING YOU ARE FULL OF ****.

I will continue to do so.

Fact is, you Eastern mystic types show so much passive scorn for other philosophies, you deserve whatever comes your way in not-so-passive scorn from the likes of me.

Every indication is that you folks have no more real knowledge of WHAT IS -- or what is illusionary -- than the theists and atheists. But you simply cannot acknowledge that.

So be it! De Nile is more than just a river in Egypt.

Ge -- you are so far off base, I don't even know how to begin.

For the record, you have still to provide me with a single example of me "believing" anything.

And try to get your mind wrapped around this concept: If I identify a guess I am making as a guess -- it is not a belief. A belief is a way of describing a guess that attempts to portray it as something other than a guess.

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truth
Cjhsa, yes at the level of everyday (common sense) consciousness, I would feel that YOU hit me, but at the level of philosophical certitude (the level of absolute proof), I would not. That doesn't speak too well for that kind of philosophy, does it?

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Well, if I nailed you again, I think you'd be pretty darn sure of it by that point.

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truth
Frank, I don't want to feed your anger because it spoils the ethos of our discussions, but let me tell that I have never felt that "Eastern mystic types show...scorn for other philosophies." Indeed, I've always felt that mystics feel that if one wants to deal with the world in practical terms, Western science is the best approach, if one wants to deal with intellectual issues, one is best prepared by the study of Western philosophy. But if one wants to feel joy in each moment of life and be able to die gracefully, one must meditate on the nature of Self and Consciousness.
Thinker and Navel Gazer

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truth
By the way, Frank, it's my understanding that "agnosticism" is a term referring exclusively to one's stance in matters of religious belief. If one wishes to denote a generalized disbelieve in all forms of certitude (which I do not consider an unreasonable stance), one is referring to "skepticism" and--in its most extreme form-- "nihilism"

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I've seen definitions of "agnosticism" that include non-religious uses. Do a Google search on "agnostic definition".

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truth
O.K., definitions are just defintions.

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As such, definitions are our understanding of the language in which we try to communicate. c.i.

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truth
Yes, C.I., but definitions are NOT little mirrors onto reality; they are conventions of meaning, which is what you are saying, I believe. We can redefine terms to narrow or broaden their applications so long as our interactants agree.

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My turn for a guess ... Frank, I guess you are not going to / cannot answer my questions.

Could you describe this 'base' I am off?

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truth
C.I., notice that I altered my last post. I left out "not" in my statement that definitions are (not) little mirrors onto reality...

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JLN, didn't suggest anything about our communication being "reality." Wink

c.i.

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That's a whole new ball game.

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First off Frank, why don't you admit your error in stating that I am avoiding acknowledging that whatever IS,....... is a mystery.
I've done nothing of the kind, matter of fact if reality is nondual it is even a greater mystery.

Frank wrote:

Quote:

I have said that so many times, you really should be on my side in that dispute I'm having with Ge -- who apparently THINKS I am saying something that I am not saying.

I have not taken sides in your discussion with Ge and don't plan on doing so. It is ironic through that you are mentioning that I should be on your side,.....and that you guess I am full of ****,......in the same breathe.

Quote:

In any case, whenever you make one of your proclamations about what reality is -- and what is real and what is only an illusion -- making it sound like you are sharing some great truth which has been revealed to you -- I snicker -- and call your attention to the fact that I AM GUESSING YOU ARE FULL OF ****.

Is this where this discussion is going?

Need I mention that statements like, "you are full of ****" are not counter arguments or rebuttals, nor is claiming someone is guessing for that matter. And neither is mockery, re: "I snicker"

And I will continue to call attention to the fact that your guesses are naïve speculations based on conventional and conservative ideas where an understanding of the nature of perceptions, awareness, thoughts and thinking and the 'self' are taken for granted.

Quote:

Fact is, you Eastern mystic types show so much passive scorn for other philosophies, you deserve whatever comes your way in not-so-passive scorn from the likes of me.

You show passive scorn and contempt for every theist or anyone that claims any insights at all about the nature of this existence or the 'self'. So you are no one to talk.

Quote:

Every indication is that you folks have no more real knowledge of WHAT IS -- or what is illusionary -- than the theists and atheists. But you simply cannot acknowledge that.

Get this Frank, and I know it's hard for you to grasp so listen up.

The indications you go by are severely lacking since they are an analysis and examination of your own thinking, perceptions, and awareness. Yours not others.

Frank speaking to GE

Quote:

And try to get your mind wrapped around this concept: If I identify a guess I am making as a guess -- it is not a belief. A belief is a way of describing a guess that attempts to portray it as something other than a guess.

I don't but it.

Your distinction between 'beliefs' and guesses is self serving. Where you claim others disguise their guesses using the word, "beliefs" you disguise your beliefs using the word, "guesses". (becasue you don't want to be in the camp as 'believers'.)

Most know guess = belief, belief = guess. (although there certainly isn't anything wrong with pointing it out)

Like others you come to discussions with your own belief system which is, prior to anyone uttering a word; theists or anyone claiming any insights about the nature of this existence, god, transcendent 'self', universal or unity consciousness etc., are all in denial of their agnosticism.

Everyone is in denial.

Now it's not a guess in as much it exists prior to anyone saying anything. So you are not yet guessing, for there is nothing at this point to guess about.

You are holding a belief.

Welcome to the world of believers.

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Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

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