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Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

Forums: Spirituality And Religion, Religion, Life, Death, Life After Death
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 05:48 am
Twyvel said:

Welcome to the world of believers.

Not quite ..... acceptance is an issue

Frank, just a couple of things to aid your understanding.

#1
Truth takes no side ..... truth IS.
You can paint it you can hide it you can distort it but it remains what it IS ...... why? Truth stands unsupported while a lie needs ever thickening layers of support, layers that can be peeled away to reveal .......truth.

#2
Choosing sides .... a man that requires another man to choose sides usually has no side from which to choose.
Twyvel can no sooner be on my side than I can be on his ...... just as we hold like beliefs, we hold many beliefs that are personal and therefore, can be shared, but not proven. To require proof or validity of a personal belief is to be intolerable or bigoted to anothers thoughts thereby denying personal reality, yours and theirs.

Question .. are you ever going to answer my questions?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 06:01 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
My turn for a guess ... Frank, I guess you are not going to / cannot answer my questions.

Could you describe this 'base' I am off?


Your question concerns a "belief" of mine. I have no beliefs. So I cannot answer your question -- not that I think that will stop you from asking it. Why not phrase it in a way that I can answer?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 06:10 am
a
A big guy like you hitting from the ladies tee ..... on a par three???
Shocked
S'up with that?

How about a four part multiple choice Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 06:12 am
twyvel wrote:
Your distinction between 'beliefs' and guesses is self serving. Where you claim others disguise their guesses using the word, "beliefs" you disguise your beliefs using the word, "guesses". (becasue you don't want to be in the camp as 'believers'.)

Most know guess = belief, belief = guess. (although there certainly isn't anything wrong with pointing it out)

Like others you come to discussions with your own belief system which is, prior to anyone uttering a word; theists or anyone claiming any insights about the nature of this existence, god, transcendent 'self', universal or unity consciousness etc., are all in denial of their agnosticism.

Everyone is in denial.

Now it's not a guess in as much it exists prior to anyone saying anything. So you are not yet guessing, for there is nothing at this point to guess about.

You are holding a belief.

Welcome to the world of believers.


In your dreams, Twyvel

The fact that you do not see the distinction between a person saying "I believe..." and a person saying "I guess..." is probably at the root of your problem. And that lack of understanding also probably accounts for the fact that you buy into this Eastern belief system so thoroughly; so naively; and so unconsciously.

It is almost laughable that a belief system that pretends to open consciousness has to depend on people unconsciously buying into it -- but that is the way with belief systems.

For the record -- and really pay attention, you might finally get this:

A "belief" is a guess that is being disguised. The individual saying "I believe...x..." is trying to disguise the fact that he/she is actually saying "I guess/suspect/estimate/hope...x...".

When a person actually acknowledges that he/she is making a guess -- that does not constitute making a belief. There is no attempt to disguise the fact that a guess is being made.

THE DIFFERENCE IS THE ATTEMPT TO DISGUISE.

Try to finally grasp that Twyvel. You'll be the better for it.

But I did get a kick out of your attempts to make me a "believer" and I was actually heartened by it. When a person gets desperate, it often is a sign they are actually in contact with the truth -- but are still trying to work out the fear it generates in them.

You'll get it eventually -- and I promise I will be here to help you.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 06:15 am
twyvel wrote:
First off Frank, why don't you admit your error in stating that I am avoiding acknowledging that whatever IS,....... is a mystery.
I've done nothing of the kind, matter of fact if reality is nondual it is even a greater mystery.


There is nothing to acknowledge because I am not wrong here.

You keep posting stuff that indicates you think you know the answers to questions about reality. You talk about nobody being here; nobody to hear; nobody this and that.

Get off your nonsense and realize that you do post that way.

MY GUESS: You -- and all the other Eastern mystics -- don't know anything more about reality than anyone else on this planet -- and your guesses are not appreciably more intellectual or more appealing than the guesses any of the other people make.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 06:17 am
Quote:
Everyone is in denial.


On this issue, Twyvel, I am not in denial. I readily acknowledge that I do not know the answers to questions about reality -- and that there does not appear to be enough unambiguous evidence to make a meaningful guess in any particular direction.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 08:53 am
I'm which you, Frank. People talk about reality like they know something the rest of the world doesn't. Kind of laughable, if you ask me! LOL c.i.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 09:28 am
CI, tell me what you know of reality ...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 09:34 am
"Reality - The quality or state of being actual or true. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 09:44 am
So are you saying that the nature of reality is dependent upon which dictionary is used?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 09:47 am
That's the best I can do - for you! Wink c.i.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 10:02 am
a
I understand now, you were being self critical when you said :

Quote:
I'm which you, Frank. People talk about reality like they know something the rest of the world doesn't. Kind of laughable, if you ask me! LOL c.i.



I have never read a post from you that would indicate you would deny anyone an opinion.
But then again ...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 10:47 am
Ge

Whenever you are ready to stop playing games, give me your questions again.

You don't want an answer -- you want to pretend I will not answer.

It's a cheap debating trick -- and anyone who cannot see through it probably doesn't belong here.

BTW -- please do not ask more questions about my beliefs -- because I have told you I do not have beliefs. If you want to ask about my guesses, feel free.

But my guess is that you will get much more mileage out of pretending I won't answer than actually dealing with answers.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 11:42 am
God forbid, I would deny anybody an opinion. Now, that's really not understanding reality. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 12:41 pm
a
Frank said

Quote:
Ge

Whenever you are ready to stop playing games, give me your questions again.


OK Frank, no more games ..... here once again are my questions as basic as I can put them:

Quote:
Frank, if I may enter the fray .... to paraphrase ...... you believe that Twyvel's belief is belief and that your belief that his belief is belief is fact?
Am I correct?

-----------

One obvious answer is that you believe you have the right to believe in your right to believe in what you believe is right to believe in.

Question .... do other people have that same right?


Frank said:

Quote:
You don't want an answer -- you want to pretend I will not answer
.

So trip me up .... answer.

Frank said:

Quote:
It's a cheap debating trick -- and anyone who cannot see through it probably doesn't belong here
.

Yeah, whoever insisted on allowing questions is pretty darn transparent to me too!

Frank said:

Quote:
BTW -- please do not ask more questions about my beliefs -- because I have told you I do not have beliefs. If you want to ask about my guesses, feel free.


Hey, is this one of those Oxymoronic trick questions? I believe I have no beliefs ... pretty clever Frank.

Frank said:

Quote:
But my guess is that you will get much more mileage out of pretending I won't answer than actually dealing with answers
.

I guess the only way to find out is if you answer
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 12:46 pm
a
CI, Hey, why so hot, you go atomic at the drop of a hat ... I am crushed!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 12:48 pm
Insults are a bane to my ego - whatever is left of it. Wink c.i.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 12:53 pm
See it works .... an ego is impossible without reality .... there is hope ...

<I'm sorry if you take sarcasm as insult. Think about it>
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 01:02 pm
Re: a
Gelisgesti wrote:
OK Frank, no more games ..... here once again are my questions as basic as I can put them:

Quote:
Frank, if I may enter the fray .... to paraphrase ...... you believe that Twyvel's belief is belief and that your belief that his belief is belief is fact?
Am I correct?

-----------

One obvious answer is that you believe you have the right to believe in your right to believe in what you believe is right to believe in.

Question .... do other people have that same right?



Sorry, Ge, but I have already answered that one. I have mentioned time and time again that I do not have beliefs. If you are asking about my guesses -- ask the question in a way that I can answer.

Your phrasing here is absurd.

Give it another try -- I promise I will answer just as soon as you ask a legible question.


Although frankly, I think (guess) you are still playing the game.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Jun, 2003 01:06 pm
I can dish out sarcasm as well as the next guy. Wink c.i.
0 Replies
 
 

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