Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

So was my answer - rhetorical. c.i.

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Frank wrote:

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Surely you don't think that agnosticism means never making a guess.

Of course not. Why would you ever think that?

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I make guesses and estimates all the time. BUT I identify them as guesses or estimates -- or at least I attempt to remember to identify them as guesses or estimates each and every time I post.

Perhaps I have missed a few -- BUT at no time have I ever tried to pass off any guess or estimate of mine as some GREAT TRUTH that I am sharing with the world.

I'm sure some others would agree that some of your comments come across as if you are sharing some GREAT TRUTH; that great truth being; that you know others are guessing.

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When I use the term "you are sharing of a belief system" (which I acknowledge I should write "I think/suspect/estimate you are sharing of a belief system") I am talking about the dozens upon dozens of time that you share a belief -- and offer it up as a gem of knowledge.

The above statement makes my point.

The issue; which I acknowledge I should write "I think/suspect/estimate....

There have been dozens of times that you have not acknowledged that.

On this thread alone Gelisgesti has asked you three-four times if your comments about what Gelisgesti and I write are guesses. ......All of which remained unanswered.

So it appears a little more difficult to get you to acknowledge your guesses as guesses or beliefs then you would have us believe. Matter of point in one post of yours you actually said that it was a fact that I was guessing. (paraphrase)

I highly doubt you would agree with cicerones imposter's statement: "We are all guessing", (which appears to be presented as if it were knowledge),although I think it is something you believe. In fact from my understand you think everyone is in denial about their agnosticism.

Question:

Is it true that you think everyone is in denial about their agnosticism?

I do acknowledge that I Have made comments that were not acknowledged to be the guesses they were. However the recent ones such as "there's no one experiencing experience", is not based in belief.

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I'll make a deal with you! Any time I ever write something in this forum that appears to be a guess or estimate on my part that I have not identified as a guess or estimate -- call it to my attention and I will correct the passage immediately.

How about making that same commitment yourself -- so that when I come across another of your "There is nobody else" "There is only One" -- I can call it to your attention and you can acknowledge that it is merely a guess IF IT IS A GUESS AND IF YOU HAVE THE ETHICS AND WILLINGNESS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS.

I think we're already doing that, and we certainly can continue. JLNobody might be correct about some of us speaking past each other.

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If you do make the commitment, I would start by calling your attention to something you just said to JL: "And I would add that there is no one experiencing experience."

I'll respond in a subsequent post.

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cicerone imposter initially wrote:

[quote]We are all guessing. There isn't enough reliable information to determine the truth. c.i. [/quote]

That We are all guessing may be true, but you or anyone else cannot know that. You cannot know whether or not ONE other person is guessing let alone whether six billion plus people are guessing.

As such your statement is a guess, it is not knowledge.

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"Some people may know the true nature of this existence beyond a shadow of a doubt." Therein lies the answer: "beyond the shadow of a doubt" is still guessing. c.i.

"beyond a shadow of a doubt"......means zero doubt.

So it would read, " Some people may know the true nature of this existence with zero doubt. In other words they would KNOW.........and there's no guessing or believing needed in that...At this point I am not saying anyone knows anything, but merely that it is a possibility.

And as long as it's a possibility, we remain agnostic, and your statement, "We are all guessing."........is not knowledge but a guess or belief.

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twyvel, You're a tough nut to crack. On the issue of god or evolution, everybody is guessing. When you say, I can't know that, you probably don't understand logic. You cannot prove a negative. You can "believe" in god, but that's still a guess, because nobody can prove there's a god. I can "know" that without any doubt. It's for the person who says there is a god to prove it - not for me to prove there isn't. c.i.

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Jesus, hanging from the cross, was guessing when he said 'father, why hath thou forsaken me?'? Don't forget, no person that cannot fully articulate his agument to your complete satisfaction, knows anything.

Or if a person's logic flies in the face of popular belief ........ as in'the world is round' ..... they are guessing and therefore dead flat wrong.

Could someone be guessing about guessing?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

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, You're a tough nut to crack. On the issue of god or evolution, everybody is guessing. When you say, I can't know that, you probably don't understand logic. You cannot prove a negative. You can "believe" in god, but that's still a guess, because nobody can prove there's a god. I can "know" that without any doubt. It's for the person who says there is a god to prove it - not for me to prove there isn't. c.i.

Your statement: On the issue of god or evolution, everybody is guessing.

Is a guess for this simple reason if god does exist it is possible that some people KNOW that god exists. And is as much as it is possible that god exists and some know god exists your statement is merely a guess, after all in that situation the guess would be wrong.

As far as logic goes try this: God does not have to be proven (to others) to exist to be known to exist. (by god I mean, transcend self, unity consciousness, Brahman/Atman, etc). One individual can know god, universal consciousness exists as a fact of knowledge in such a way as it would not be shareable to others except as information and/or communication through words.

So there is a difference between "knowing" privately, within your own being god, unity consciousness exists and not being able to pass that knowing onto others or prove to others this personally known god exists.

And, having to prove that god exists.

So god (etc.) can be known to exist privately and as such you statement, "We are all guessing" is a guess.

And you cannot know without any doubt that no one can prove there is a god. It just (apparently) hasn't happened yet as far as you know.

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Twyvel

Getting through to you is damn near impossible.

I have qualified almost everything I've ever said about what I suspect others know or do not know -- and your attempts to make it seem as though I am saying "I KNOW you do not KNOW ..." are absurd.

In any case, you continue to tout that Eastern Philosophy stuff as though it has to be the truth -- and I am of the opinion that it is as much a bunch of nonsense as any of the Christian (or other theistic) propaganda.

You talk as though you have discovered some great truth -- when in fact it is fairly obvious you are merely echoing a bunch of Eastern mystical teachings.

Trying to discuss it with you, though, is like trying to nail Jello to the ceiling.

I will content myself with calling attention to each instance of you trying to pass off what is almost certainly a guess as knowledge.

And that will have to do -- because obviously you are not aware of the deficiencies in your arguments -- a trait you share with the Western theists.

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Frank, nobody's right if everybody's wrong .... where does that leave us?

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Gel, Just as you stated, "nobody's right if everybody's wrong." It doesn't leave us anyplace. It just is. c.i.

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Oh, my god, I used that word! Wink

c.i.

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Everybody's wrong ..... not a single person has it right on the whole planet?

Boy does that make us the laughing stock of the galaxy or what .... I can hear it all now ... those stupid carbon based humanoids are all freakin wrong ..... wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong .... they are so stoopid they don't even suspect anything .... how did they even get upright ....

Excuse me while I go take some poison .... oh the humiliation!

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Geesh, someone go ask the Dalai Lama, quick!

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Gels, Don't get so excited; "Boy does that make us the laughing stock of the galaxy or what." We "are" the galaxy - so far as we know. c.i.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Frank, nobody's right if everybody's wrong .... where does that leave us?

Who said "everyone's wrong?"

Why are you assuming that everyone is wrong?

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a
Meanwhile back at the ranch .....
That one quadrajillionth of a second before you fall asleep, you are in total awareness of your surroundings ..... clock ticking, the buzz of a lawn mower down the street, music from the radio in the kitchen ... your head nods and you sense warmth, a feeling of inexplicable goodness like you are floating above all earthly encumbrances ...... your body jerks you awake and for another quadrajillionth of on second you are confused and disoriented, then as you realize that only a half note of music has played on the radio while you were gone for what seemed to be a lifetime, you are suddenly back ....... from where?

Why did this place, if you could call it a place, seem so hauntingly familiar..... why can't you go there at will?

Are you there now ..........

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Last time I tried to post here I got timed out, so just a few comments.

Ge, I don't experience any particular feeling between awareness and sleep, and rarely remember my dreams. Where am "I" when I am unconscious or in deep non-REM sleep? My guess, based on what we know of the workings of the brain, is that "I" do not exist independently of the electrochemical processes that produce my consciousness.

Therefore I do not expect my awareness to survive death. I would prefer to believe otherwise, but since there is no scientific evidence for life after death and plenty of evidence that the mind can be altered by drugs, disease, injury or defects in the organic brain, it is illogical to guess that "I" will exist in any form beyond this life.

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Frank wrote:

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I have qualified almost everything I've ever said about what I suspect others know or do not know -- and your attempts to make it seem as though I am saying "I KNOW you do not KNOW ..." are absurd

In the long run I realize that you are not claiming to know what others know or do not know. What I am saying is it sometimes comes across (in your writing) as if you are (claiming to know what others know or do not know), i.e. that they are guessing about their understandings, experiences, observations, insights, etc. concerning god, unity consciousness etc., and what those experiences and observations mean.

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In any case, you continue to tout that Eastern Philosophy stuff as though it has to be the truth -- and I am of the opinion that it is as much a bunch of nonsense as any of the Christian (or other theistic) propaganda

As you say that is your opinion and you are certainly welcome to express it as we all are. But I would add that I think your "opinion" is not based in much research, if any, it simply appears as speculation without inquiry.

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You talk as though you have discovered some great truth -- when in fact it is fairly obvious you are merely echoing a bunch of Eastern mystical teachings.

"Obvious to you",....is not knowledge.

If I were as sage I think you would say precisely the same thing, and of course you would be very wrong.

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Trying to discuss it with you, though, is like trying to nail Jello to the ceiling.

You think so?

The point is Frank if you think all theists, spiritual atheists etc. are in denial of their agnosticism, meaning they actually don't know anything about any god, or unity consciousness, transcendent awareness, etc., and are all guessing, then how opened are you to their views? Or that god might exist, and is knowable?

Proof that your awareness is not observable cannot be had except through 'self' analysis and observation, it's not "out there". It can only be pointed to, but if you're not willing or interested in looking then your opinion doesn't hold much weight in these matters.

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With all due respect, Gelisgesti,
We do not go there because we do not HAVE control over some things.
We do not control life, death and breath.

Oh yes, I know we have the ability to take up 'means' and commit suicide, or act in the taking of another's life- but then that is not really "control" but CHOICE.

For all our intelligence, personal feelings, guesses, beliefs, and rejections, scorn for others choices and guesses, assertions- etc and etc.
we remain- subject to age, environment, accident, mood, malady, and death. And might I add, we become sleepy because we cannot continue to exist in the body without sleep. It is a natural phenomenon, which we can ALTER, but not control for very long without hazardous side-effects.

Does it do much more than aggravate your mind, to ask WHY?

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twyvel, yes, it is possible to be certain of the existence of god(s), if you have direct experience of them. But has anyone truly encountered God, or are their experiences nothing more than the product of their own desire for belief?

Those who do not have direct experience may profess faith but not certainty.

Agnostics and atheists may judge or guess that those who claim direct experience of god have incorrectly ascribed natural phenomena, coincidences, dreams, or delusions to supernatural forces.

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a
Frank, swing and a miss ... I'm on the side that gives each person the right to their own reality, beliefs and Gods. Your's is the opinion that a person that cannot substantiate a faith or personal belief can go ahead and thtink that way but they are wrong.... or are you now saying that their guesses are not guesses but statement of facts? Can't have it both ways.

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Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

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