Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

Twyvel wrote:


I say:

Clay is to the soul as yolk is to the shell .......

...I think he nailed it Twyvel, unless you can show a positve determination.

JL,
...Stop worrying. It's not your PC. Several people, including myself, have been having this trouble, for the last few days.

thanks
Thanks, Booman. It's good to know that others are suffering as badly as I.

Booman wrote:



When someone says, "We are all guessing" , that in itself is a guess. For how can anyone know that everyone on the planet is guessing?

Some people may know the true nature of this existence beyond a shadow of a doubt, and as long as that is a possibility the statement, "We are all guessing" is not knowledge. It is a guess, a belief.

That's my point.

Frank wrote:



I absolutely agree.




According to my understandings of your writings, this is what you "believe".

You believe much of what I write represents a belief system.

You believe much of what Gelisgesti writes represents a belief system.

You believe much of what JLNobody writes represents a belief system.

You believe most of what theists write represents a belief system.

Etc., etc.

Your agnosticism doesn't stop at, ....I do not know..... it extends to guessing, suspecting and /or believing that others also do not know.

JLNobody

I cruise the forums. I don't like getting thousands of e-mails which tend to clog up the system.

I think you might be right JL some of us are talking past each other.

Good points: You ARE reality every immediate experience you have, every breath you take, every thought you have (right or wrong) IS reality--it's not just "about" reality

And I would add that there is no one experiencing experience.

Twyvel

Surely you don't think that agnosticism means never making a guess.

I make guesses and estimates all the time. BUT I identify them as guesses or estimates -- or at least I attempt to remember to identify them as guesses or estimates each and every time I post.

Perhaps I have missed a few -- BUT at no time have I ever tried to pass off any guess or estimate of mine as some GREAT TRUTH that I am sharing with the world.

During the last two years -- in our many discussions here and over at Abuzz -- I have probably identified my estimation "you are sharing of a belief system" as a guess dozens of time -- and you damn well KNOW THAT!

I have gone way out of my way to acknowledge that my agnoticism is: "I do not know the answers to Ultimate Questions; I do not see anywhere near enough unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess about these things; and I SUSPECT NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE.

Even you must recognize that to be so, because in your examples, you worded the examples as "You believe that..." each time.

I have absolutely no problem with anything you have ever written that identifies what you are saying as a belief. None whatsoever -- and I dare say you will not be able to find a single example where I have taken anything to task that you have identified as a belief.

But you make a habit of offering your Eastern mysticism as TRUTH!

When I use the term "you are sharing of a belief system" (which I acknowledge I should write "I think/suspect/estimate you are sharing of a belief system") I am talking about the dozens upon dozens of time that you share a belief -- and offer it up as a gem of knowledge.

Unfortunately, in our world, the word "belief" is used as a disguise. People make guesses about reality -- and cloak their guess using the words "I believe..."

That is the area that I am calling to your attention.

And I think/guess/suspect/estimate that you recognize the difference, but that you want to make something of my guesses that truly does not exists.

I'll make a deal with you! Any time I ever write something in this forum that appears to be a guess or estimate on my part that I have not identified as a guess or estimate -- call it to my attention and I will correct the passage immediately.

How about making that same commitment yourself -- so that when I come across another of your "There is nobody else" "There is only One" -- I can call it to your attention and you can acknowledge that it is merely a guess IF IT IS A GUESS AND IF YOU HAVE THE ETHICS AND WILLINGNESS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS.

What say you to that???

If you do make the commitment, I would start by calling your attention to something you just said to JL: "And I would add that there is no one experiencing experience."

twyvel, Your post: "cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:
We are all guessing. There isn't enough reliable information to determine the truth. c.i.



A guess of yours cicerone which I suspect is incorrect."

Please prove otherwise - with 'FACTS.' c.i.

I'm betting this weeks beer money on C.I.! go ahead prove it Twyvel.

twyvel, "Some people may know the true nature of this existence beyond a shadow of a doubt." Therein lies the answer: "beyond the shadow of a doubt" is still guessing. c.i.

truth
C.I., The fact that "other people" are all convinced of the truth of their opinions, gives me reason to doubt my own. In this sense I appreciate Frank Apisa's adamant agnosticism. We simply do not know FOR SURE anything at the level of ratiocination. It is in this spirit that the world needs more doubt than it does certainty.
Having said that, I strongly suggest that the kind of "knowledge" described by mystics, has to do with a unique kind of certitude. If I see the color red, this kind of immediacy is the non-rational equivalence of rational certitude. If I recall seeing red yesterday, I would resist claiming certitude because my memory might be faulty. If I see red right now I must admit that it might be an hallucination, but I would still be seeing red-ness (hallucinatory or not) as a certain fact. It is knowledge at this level that Tywvel reports. It is a unique category of experience. And while I share with you and Frank a pervasive and, I must say, "sane" skepticism, I make an exception regarding "mystical" knowledge. I should add that what Tywvel (and I) say ABOUT what we see in our immediate experience may be faulty. Frank's right there. But the basis for our efforts at explanation, THAT which we are trying to share, is sound. But any statement that remains true to the experience tends to seem "illogical" to those with a different orientation. Personally, I find his statements refreshingly true (when I'm in the right frame of mind, that is), as I do Frank's and yours, but at a different level. I'm sure this is not clear and that it makes me look very presumptuous.

Empty Your Cup
This is a common saying and a commonly told story in martial arts circles ... A master was trying to explain something to a student. Now this student was not a brand new student, but a senior student who had learned many things. He had knowledge and experience aplenty to draw upon. But each time the master tried to explain something new to the student, the student kept trying to hold it up against his own notions of the way the world is and how it ought be, and he was unable to see the lessons in what the master was trying to teach him.

Finally, the master poured a full serving of tea into his own cup, and into the cup of the student. Then he told the student he wanted to give to him some of the tea from his own cup. He began pouring tea from his cup into the student's cup, but the student's cup was already full, and all the tea from the master's cup spilled out over the cup onto the surface below.

The student said, "Master, you can't pour anything into my cup until I empty it to make room for what you are trying to give me.", and the master replied "Yes I know." "And I can't give you any new thoughts or ideas or perspectives on life's lessons until you clear out some thoughts that are already teeming in your mind to make room for what I have to teach you." Then the master paused for a brief moment, meeting the student's eyes with his own knowing look and calmly but sternly said: " If you truly seek understanding, then first, empty your cup!"

The student pondered for a moment with a look of absolute bewilderment. Then a look of enlightenment came over him, followed by a smile, and a look of receptiveness. The master started to explain again, and this time the student saw what the master was trying to say.


-------------------------------

One hand stretching for the heavens ..... the other hand frantically grasping at the clay

Calmly denying everything to avoid dealing with anything

Blinded by the lights

Just plain ignorant

JLN, "Nobody knows for sure." That's the very knub of our ignorance as humans. I trust evolution over creation. Can I prove it? No, but that's not important. I live my life according to my beliefs - not anybody else's. c.i.

truth
C.I., you're right, JL Nobody knows for sure But when you have an immediate (pre-reflective) experience (which you are always having) like that of redness, THAT you know for sure; it's just that you don't know what you can infer from it FOR SURE.

Tower of Babel

The "Tower of Babel" is the name of the building mentioned in Genesis 11:1-9.

History of the Tower

The descendants of Noe had migrated from the "east" (Armenia) first southward, along the course of the Tigris, then westward across the Tigris into "a plain in the land of Sennar". As their growing number forced them to live in localities more and more distant from their patriarchal homes, "they said: Come, let us make a city and a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven; and let us make our name famous before we be scattered abroad into all lands." The work was soon fairly under way; "and they had brick instead of stones, and slime (asphalt) instead of mortar." But God confounded their tongue, so that they did not understand one another's speech, and thus scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city.


Substitute 'mind' for 'tongue'

The truth is mine ..... to distort until it fits my thoughts.... an excellet indication of 'virgin truth' is when your distortions mesh wih mine ... or, link.

CI, how can you be sure that your beliefs are not guesses?


You know I've heard about people like me
But I never made the connection
They walk one road to set them free
And find they've gone the wrong direction

Gels, Please go back and reread my posts. Maybe you'll find the answer. Or you can ask JLN; I think he understands. c.i.

I would equate A2K with the "Tower of Babel".

cjh, And you're a part of the tower. c.i.

CI, my question was rhetorical ......I believe your beliefs are valid for you without even hearing them. ... Just the same as you respect mine.