Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

twyvel, Please refrain from personal attacks on A2K. c.i.

0 Replies

a
Twyvel, I have read and reread your statement but can come to no understanding .....

Gelisgesti wrote:

Quote:
A spirit will hover above a prospective life form for days before making a decision to incarnate.

I think this 'spirit' you are referring to is nothing other then the awareness observing these words.

Are you using 'awareness'' as or rather than 'spirit'?
Could you clarify 'observing words' for me? What takes place when you 'observe' a word?
Thanks.

0 Replies

Frank wrote:

Quote:

Babstatamelia wrote:

Detach, detach, detach.

Quote:
I responded with:

Yes, babstatamelia, but it's a paradox as there is nothing to let go of, nothing to detach from.

Quote:
Frank wrote:

It is a statement like this that causes me to mention to you that you are sharing of a belief system -- and then deal with the angery response that provokes in you.

So--there is the possibility that there is nothing to let go of -- nothing to detach from -- but whether that is so or not, the fact that you have offered that statement is evidence that you are sharing of your belief system.

Firstly your comments that I am sharing in or stating a belief system of my own does not provoke anger in me, and I don't know what statements of mine would give you that impression.

That there is nothing to let go of (and nothing to let go) is not a belief. But you claim it is, so please point out what is being let go of and who is doing it.

I am only ONE entity, and I can no more let go of myself then I can grasp it.

It's paradoxical. On the one hand I am my life and there's nothing to distinguish me from it, on the other hand there is the awareness of it,....even though it is not separate from it.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:

twyvel, Please refrain from personal attacks on A2K. c.i.

?

0 Replies

twyvel wrote:

Firstly your comments that I am sharing in or stating a belief system of my own does not provoke anger in me, and I don't know what statements of mine would give you that impression.

If I am wrong about that, I am happy I am wrong. If I see an example in the future of you expressing anger at my assertion that you are expressing a belief, I will point it out.

Short of that, I will stand corrected.

Quote:

That there is nothing to let go of (and nothing to let go) is not a belief. But you claim it is, so please point out what is being let go of and who is doing it.

You are saying that there is nothing to let go of -- and nothing to let go. And you are saying that is not a belief!!!

I am going to ask you to do something I seldom ask anyone in one of these discsussion to do.

Twyvel -- prove that I do not exist -- and that the ball I am presently holding in my hand -- does not exist either.

I am not asking you to suggest that it is possible that I do not exist -- or that the ball does not exist -- or that I cannot prove either does exist. I am asking you to prove that I and the ball do not exist.

Short of that, you are expressing a belief system about what reality is.

0 Replies

twyvel, I'm not the only one that interpreted your post as a personal attack. Bab's post: "tut tut, now twyvel = you must remember the rules of proper comportment while on this site. Absolutely no personally negative comments - unless you and
c.i. simply enjoy ribbing one another, in which case it's just a case of me running my chops." I really don't have that thin a skin, but wanted to bring it to your attention. What you deem as proper comportment may not be interpreted by others as such. c.i.

0 Replies

Gelisgesti wrote:

Quote:

Gelisgesti wrote:

Quote:
A spirit will hover above a prospective life form for days before making a decision to incarnate.

I think this 'spirit' you are referring to is nothing other then the awareness observing these words.

Are you using 'awareness'' as or rather than 'spirit'?
Could you clarify 'observing words' for me? What takes place when you 'observe' a word?
Thanks.

Firstly, I don't know if a spirit "decides" to incarnate. And I don't know what you mean by 'spirit'

Yes I am using awareness to mean spirit,.....awareness = spirit.

But what is awareness apart from what it is aware of?

From what is observed, as this existence, in subject---object duality, awareness is "nothing" and that is precisely why this subject---object (relation) is considered an illusion; i.e. there's no observed (observable) subject, if the 'awareness' is the subject since the awareness cannot be observed.

When I 'observe' a word, (or any thing else), there is nothing to distinguish 'me' , as the observer of it, from the word, bearing in mind that the body does not observe and is not a subject as such.

0 Replies

cicerone imposter

Is this the interaction between me and you that you are referring to?

I said, >> Some say death is like taking off a tight shoe.<<

You replied, >> twyvel, I think it's more like taking off a too-tight hat.

I replied, cicerone

...that you wore your whole life long.

life as too-tight hat.

If so, the words, "you" and "your" in my comment were meant in their plural form as in, you and me, we, us etc.

The statement, >> Some say death is like taking off a tight shoe.<<

.....refers to the appearance that the awareness is confined to the body, and when the body is no more the awareness becomes what it is; free from its apparent bodily restrictions.

So I was agreeing with your metaphor and comment about the too-tight hat and therefore do not see anything as improper, and nothing was intended as such.

0 Replies

Twyvel, a 'spirit, soul, awareness' can also be thought of as a 'personality' which is how other spirits know you, by personalilty. Everything in our known universe ascends to higher and higher planes of consciousness ... to cease to grow is to die. A spirit seeks out a new body that has been born into circumstances that facillitate the spirit in it's ascension to a higher plane of consciousness and further developing it's 'personality' or atonement ... at-one-ment.

Observing:

Have you ever laid on the bottom of a swimming pool looking up at your reflection? as you float up the reflection ggradually dissapears. Once outside the water, (two atoms of oxygen, one of hydrogen, H2O) you are again surrounded by hydrogen and oxygen in a different, more gaseous form without the mirror effect. Could it be that under the right conditions, as in maybe a higher level of consciousness, that you and your spiirit would be completely aware of each other?

Could it be that there is more to this life than meets the eye?

0 Replies

twyvel, Thanks for your clarification; I really appreciate your taking the time to explain your side of the exchange. No offense taken. c.i.

0 Replies

Just for the record, and I realize no one asked me - but I was baffled at how anyone interpreted personal offense into twyvel's remarks.

0 Replies

Frank wrote:

Quote:

You are saying that there is nothing to let go of -- and nothing to let go. And you are saying that is not a belief!!!

I am going to ask you to do something I seldom ask anyone in one of these discsussion to do.

Twyvel -- prove that I do not exist -- and that the ball I am presently holding in my hand -- does not exist either.

I am not asking you to suggest that it is possible that I do not exist -- or that the ball does not exist -- or that I cannot prove either does exist. I am asking you to prove that I and the ball do not exist.

Short of that, you are expressing a belief system about what reality is.

We've been through this before and we both agreed (and so do a truck load of philosophers and many others) that it can not be done;....... one cannot prove that objects, people or anything exists apart from the perception of them, i.e. one cannot disprove solipsism.

It's not the contrast between believing------ there is nothing to let go of -- and nothing to let go, -----and knowing that there is. It's the fact of observation that consciousness cannot be observed, and as such believing is not involved.

If awareness is the subject and it cannot observe itself (dualistically speaking) in any way shape or form, because it is the observer, it is doing the observing, then it is essentially 'nothing' (observable). Given this what is there to distinguish the awareness from what it is aware of?

Nothing.

So there is nothing to let go of because there is no one to let go.

I am not saying awareness is nothing, I am saying it is nothing observable, and as such one cannot distinguish the awareness from what it is aware of. And whenever one appears to be doing so they are really making a distinction between observed things, not between a subject as awareness and objects.

0 Replies

Gelistgesti wrote:

Quote:

Twyvel, a 'spirit, soul, awareness' can also be thought of as a 'personality' which is how other spirits know you, by personalilty. Everything in our known universe ascends to higher and higher planes of consciousness ... to cease to grow is to die. A spirit seeks out a new body that has been born into circumstances that facillitate the spirit in it's ascension to a higher plane of consciousness and further developing it's 'personality' or atonement ... at-one-ment.

Yes but that 'personality' is usually referred to as the ego; thoughts, feeling and behaviour. And to the extent others know you they know various degrees and aspects of your ego,........and body. And in that sense others cannot know you as spirit = soul = awareness as it is not observable.

It may be true that the spirit 'seeks out', as you say, but that would mean it would know the future or could dictate it, as born circumstances are only one aspect of a whole life.

Quote:

Have you ever laid on the bottom of a swimming pool looking up at your reflection? as you float up the reflection ggradually dissapears. Once outside the water, (two atoms of oxygen, one of hydrogen, H2O) you are again surrounded by hydrogen and oxygen in a different, more gaseous form without the mirror effect. Could it be that under the right conditions, as in maybe a higher level of consciousness, that you and your spiirit would be completely aware of each other?

Nice analogy.

As long as you know things through a subject---object relation, as in: you and your spirit completely aware of each other,.......I don't think it can be said to be a higher level of consciousness.

Although I think there is a direct awareness in which you are what you are aware of.( which is apparently always already the case)

Quote:

Could it be that there is more to this life than meets the eye?

For sure.

I think the "more" is in transcending subject---object dualism; i.e. nondualism, you are the universe, everything observable, literally.

And there may be many aspects of this life such as other 'realities' or spiritual realms that most of us appear to have virtually zero access to, which may be just that, appearance.

0 Replies

Haven't read ALL of this thread but would like to respond anyhow.

I think we are spiritual beings in a human experience, for growth, and that we will return to the spirit world to prepare for our next existence. In this way we will continue to reincarnate until we have reached the required perfection to move on from this planet.

Actually, I also think we will go wherever we "think" we will go, at death, where we will be met with (whomever is there to know) and guided gently to correct and positive thinking (whatever we need to "know"). After all, there's eons and eons of time.

Gel, I liked your Tues., Apr. 29 post. Also, yes, remember Wounded Knee. I also respect what has been said by Visitor and Snood. Phoenix, too, as she does think we can choose to bring knowledge forth to assist those who come after us. But, Phoenix, where would we get the awareness to know this?

0 Replies

Tex-Star- Interesting question. IMO many of the things that we do are "programmed" genetically. Mothers ( I know that there are anomalous exceptions) are in general, programmed to care for their young. The male of the species are programmed to protect and care for their spouses and offspring. How this plays out varies with the culture, and even the individual, but I think that I can safely say that this phenomenon cuts across all cultural lines.

By the same token, through personal experience, I believe that people are "geared" to mentor the younger folks amongst us. There is a tendency amongst people to pass along what we have learned to others.

I started to notice this in my mid forties, when my son was already grown. I seemed to have a need to share what I had learned in life with others. You see a lot of this on A2K. By sharing experiences, we provide not only information, but skills that already have been honed to a certain extent. The person on the receiving end may take that information, hone it some more, and then pass it on to others. This, IMO, is one way that the human race evolves.

0 Replies

a
Twyvel said:

" Yes but that 'personality' is usually referred to as the ego; thoughts, feeling and behavior. And to the extent others know you they know various degrees and aspects of your ego,........and body. And in that sense others cannot know you as spirit = soul = awareness as it is not observable.

It may be true that the spirit 'seeks out', as you say, but that would mean it would know the future or could dictate it, as born circumstances are only one aspect of a whole life. "

Try to use all your senses, not just the earthly five, a sense of smell won't do much for you in the spirit world or in trying to understand your relationship with your soul.

The spirit can only look at the past, present and future and evaluate the probabilities of the direction a life will be taking .... this 'prescient' ability is, as past lives, relegated to the dream world after incarnation because there is no context in this or future lives ..... apples and oranges..

It should be added that, as in the stars, a life is not compelled by circumstance but is impelled by it.

0 Replies

Catching up on a couple of days' reading. I agree with Snood about the interchange between twyvel and c.i. I understood, when I first read it, the intended implications of a hat proffered in exchange for the constricting shoe as an analogy of a spirit's release upon bodily death. It reminded me of Alan Watts' observation about what Zen tries to do: remove the frame through which each of us perceives the world.

One does not have to posit any characteristics of that released spirit to understand twyvel's post, and in fact he was writing what he had heard or read, not saying that it was his belief. C.i. added, with a wink, that a better analogy would be a hat, the removal of which would release the spirit -- which surely hovers near the brain :wink: -- rather than releasing only the aching metatarsals.

Having written the above, I realize how much easier it is to parse and tease out meanings in language than it is to define or defend the idea of an eternal spirit.

0 Replies

twyvel wrote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
You are saying that there is nothing to let go of -- and nothing to let go. And you are saying that is not a belief!!!

I am going to ask you to do something I seldom ask anyone in one of these discsussion to do.

Twyvel -- prove that I do not exist -- and that the ball I am presently holding in my hand -- does not exist either.

I am not asking you to suggest that it is possible that I do not exist -- or that the ball does not exist -- or that I cannot prove either does exist. I am asking you to prove that I and the ball do not exist.

Short of that, you are expressing a belief system about what reality is.

We've been through this before and we both agreed (and so do a truck load of philosophers and many others) that it can not be done;....... one cannot prove that objects, people or anything exists apart from the perception of them, i.e. one cannot disprove solipsism.

It's not the contrast between believing------ there is nothing to let go of -- and nothing to let go, -----and knowing that there is. It's the fact of observation that consciousness cannot be observed, and as such believing is not involved.

If awareness is the subject and it cannot observe itself (dualistically speaking) in any way shape or form, because it is the observer, it is doing the observing, then it is essentially 'nothing' (observable). Given this what is there to distinguish the awareness from what it is aware of?

Nothing.

So there is nothing to let go of because there is no one to let go.

I am not saying awareness is nothing, I am saying it is nothing observable, and as such one cannot distinguish the awareness from what it is aware of. And whenever one appears to be doing so they are really making a distinction between observed things, not between a subject as awareness and objects.

Twyvel

What you have written here reminds me of the kind of thing theists sometimes do. They often say: "Look at the creation; there has to be a Creator."

So essentially, with absolutely no basis for doing so, they DEFINE everything around us as a "CREATION" -- which of course, necessitates a Creator.

But there is the possibility that what we see around us is not a creation at all.

I grant that "consciousness cannot be observed" -- although even that has arguments that can be made against it.

But to supposed that because of that -- THEREFORE "there is nothing to let go of because there is no one to let go" is a LEAP OF FAITH. It is a belief system.

But I have come to the conclusion that most people dealing with a belief system simply cannot see -- or cannot acknowledge that it is a belief system.

If you want to believe there is nothing to let go because there is no one to let go -- do it. I will go so far as to commend you for your devotion to this notion.

And I will continue to call your attention to the fact that you are expressing a belief here -- not a fact.

0 Replies

Frank, I agree with your thesis; most people have a belief system that is difficult to let go, because they see nothing else to replace it. Makes alot of sense ot me! Wink

c.i.

0 Replies

Frank, if I may enter the fray .... to paraphrase ...... you believe that Twyvel's belief is belief and that your belief that his belief is belief is fact?
Am I correct?

0 Replies

Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know