Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

truth
Twyvel says: "true understanding is to understand that one doesn't understand." And, I would add that it is blissfully liberating to know that there is no need to understand. Our ultimate existential questions are best not asked; they are false issues, non-issues. The whole point of meditation is to SEE how true this is. Just live each day with a smile, and let the cosmos take care of itself--whatever that means.

Yes, JL it could not have happened any other way, but it really doesn't happen any way....

There's no difference between ' B ' and ' A ', they just are. The difference is conceptual, you can't see difference.

truth
Twyvel, of course that's so--ultimately. But at that level we must simply be quiet. Language, analysis, evaluation, require distinctions even though "The Actual/Reality/Tao/Truth/Dharma, etc.", since it is beyond all distinctions, does not.

I have been reading this thread since it began, and the one comment I can make with certainty, is that it has made me THINK longer, and in one track- more than anything I have read for years.

Some words stand OUT to me, as I read, and I find these particular words to make a real difference in what each of you are saying, (as I am trying to hear and learn).
Words like "self", "ego", "conception", "human", "fertilizer", "SPIRIT",
"physics", "evolution" etc, etc.
Just as the author of this thread believes (if I have not read him wrong)
the 'spirit' of a person' is very separate (yet part of) from the physical dust body that we are. Our mind, core or soul, and essence (spirit) all came about because our body was born- but this body of clay serves only to 'house' the real person. Any and all of us who have lived a few years, experienced death of friends, relatives- and/or have seen road kill and euthanasia of pets... know EXACTLY what the passage of this BODY will be after is dies.
Yet SO MUCH of our life is driven by ours and others OPINION of this very "body of clay! I find THAT remarkable, when in intelligence we all know the rules of obsolesence- that we are STILL more impressed with a persons LOOKS, than their abilities.
Isn't that something?
A cute friend came to see me a few days ago. She was wearing a red pants suit... she had barefoot hose on under red sandals with high heels, and her toenails were painted 'french style'- likewise- her fingernails were manicured to perfection, matching her suit. She keeps her neatly coifed hair golden blonde (which was her childhood color).
I could see she had been making her regular visits to the tanning bed, being just a lovely shade. Like a Barbie doll in size, she was the picture of perfection in looks / grooming. Being a woman, I know how much money and attention/time, this kind of self beautifying takes.
Then I asked her about her mother- and her only daughter, who went to live with her father and his family after her divorce. She guesses they are ok.
How do we explain this fascination with 'self' that relates DIRECTLY to the decaying body- which we KNOW is doomed to return to what some here call 'fertilizer'? How much of this preoccupation with "self" (body) is detrimental to the growth of a loving, unselfish, sharing SPIRIT?

Or as Gelis is asking us, does it matter?
I think it does!!
I do believe we have a Creator- I do believe He Is God (or whatever name that means the Awesome Power each of us subscribes to Him)
And I do not think He is ANYTHING like as we are..(bodily)
For the 'flesh' has brought about 'egos' 'selfishness' 'greed' etc. I do believe it is HARD for people to put others above themselves, and follow what Jesus Christ taught.

And-- surely, it is an error for me or anyone to tell ANOTHER, whether what you think is 'this or that'. Just my experience, I am relating.

I think, G.....we have NO way of knowing what will become of this spirit, when we make the passage from this dead body. But I am for believing I will be LIVING somewhere.

Good advice JLNobody. If only I could meditate like my cat.



Yes, "The Actual/Reality/Tao/Truth/Dharma, etc.", is right here right now, but we chug along as if it's not. We suffer, and suffering is serious business,

Way back in April-
Gelisgesti wrote:




Is it so hard to realize God (Love and Perfection) are as REAL as your own Spirit, Gelisgesti? You cannot see your thoughts. You cannot see your spirit! But you attest to Frank that this is NOT a guess, you KNOW your own reality! I agree with you. I believe I know what is in my spirit too-- (I am just not always willing to admit to some of it )

Why do you feel that WORSHIP is something that cost you anything?
There is no money involved, no time, actually, and no energy--
just the 'spirit' (we call it emotion, from time to time) loving the Hope, which is the evidence of Faith- that we are Loved and saved from an eterenal 'nothingness'.

(I guess you have heard different in the multitude of churches we have all over the world), but--- truth is truth. You should search for it in communication with God Himself, and from His Word.
[Do not stumble on the ideosyncrasies from the culture and ineptitude of men- as they obeyed and wrote the moving of God in their own words. The Real Words are contained within it.]

It costs me nothing to be free---shouldn't I say PRAISE GOD???

You almost got it right, Jackie.

Truth indeed is truth. And you should search for it.

But to assume there is a God -- and to assume the only way to find truth is to communicate with this God -- is almost a certain path to not finding truth -- but finding what you want to find, whether it is truth of not.

Search for the truth -- PERIOD.

I have found it.

The truth is that I do not know the answers to questions such as are being proposed here in this thread -- and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence to make meaningful guesses about those answers.

That is an astounding truth -- a liberating truth.

And I didn't have to assume there is a God -- and I didn't have to assume I could communicate with that God -- in order to discover that truth.

Search for the truth.

Sorry, it took me so long to reply Snood!! I've been so busy
getting all these "procedures" that they do to people at the
hospitals these days. They used to call them tests, which is
all they are. What a world. There ARE days - and I do
mean this in all honesty, when I FEEL my body and I can't
really say that death, is so awfully terrible. A release from
this body and it's pains and torture's, and especially on rainy
wet days; I think about signing a DNR release the next time
I have any major surgery done. I may only be 53 in years,
but it feels like thousands of years for some reason. A person
can only endure so much pain, you know? But I digress!!!
That little gem of a poem was written in 1932 by Mary Frye
for her own memorial service. I found it somewhere along
the way and I have always been drawn to it. I like the words,
I like how she strings them together & I love the message.
The eternal components from which we spring - we return.
That's not so bad to contemplate after all. I can envision
being a species of bird inhabiting the Smoky Mountains(one
of my most beloved places, and where my ashes will go to
rest) or a leaf high on a tree where my entire view all the
year long is just one gorgeous dream - with a view!! And a
wonderful view. Originally I wanted my ashes to go back
up on Charlie's Bunion (one of the highest hikes I ever did,
and the longest) the kind of hike where you aren't quite sure
if you are still on the right path, as it gets so little wear it is
hard to tell, so the moments of decision - which way to go,
are a bit worrisome. But, at this point I don't know anyone
else who knows the way up there except Patty & she is losing
her sight. So, maybe a helicopter ride would work, eh???
But - that is all I know about that poem Snood, you like it
too?? IT IS SO NICE, ISN'T IT!

JL and twyvel, you are both speaking in rhythm with the Buddhist concept of non-attachment. Trying to find the Now, endeavoring to detach the emotions that wrap around every concept.

Jackie wrote:



I have never understood the idea of worship. What are we worshipping and why? If there is indeed an infinite, all loving, all good, omniscient God, why does She have to be worshipped? Isn't She beyond all of that neediness?

True true, Kara, if EVER the expression LET IT GO!
was the major tenet of a world religion, that would be
the message of Buddhism. Detach, detach, detach.
So easy to say, but so hard to achieve. It requires so
much training of the mind, such strictness and such
mindfulness; and at times, I'm not really sure I want
quite THAT degree of detachment, not yet. I see Jade,
my loving grandson & it cuts my heart like a knife, just
at the mere IDEA of any harm coming to him & inside
of me, I still become like a feral carnivore, like a
momma tiger scared into an attack over one of her cubs,
Jade is still one of mine. I think that it's a little bit
easier with my own grown/adult children, because I'm
aware of their development, their defenses are strong
and sturdy and they will make mistakes and learn from
them.. just like we all do. AND IF THEY ARE WISE, they
will just stay down there - on the ground - where they
just FELL FLAT ON THEIR FACE, & stay there awhile till
they can contemplate & figure out exactly WHAT it was
that got them into that position! We had so many good
years together, I have tried to teach them all that I know,
for what its worth.

babstatamelia wrote:


Yes, babstatamelia, but it's a paradox as there is nothing to let go of, nothing to detach from.

Some say death is like taking off a tight shoe.

twyvel, I think it's more like taking off a too-tight hat. c.i.

cicerone


...that you wore your whole life long.




life as too-tight hat.

tut tut, now twyvel = you must remember the rules
of proper comportment while on this site. Absolutely
no personally negative comments - unless you and
c.i. simply enjoy ribbing one another, in which case
it's just a case of me running my chops.

mmmMMMMMmmmmm...... Porrrk Chops! Greasy, runny porrrk chops!

So many things to detach from, so little time!

It's not all the things you manage to fit into life,
but what you get out of it.

Some people think each of us has "chosen" to be here,
in this body, at this time. What do you think?
When the time comes will you be offered a choice of where to go?

a
Each spirit, while in spirit form is prescient and to a degree can follow the threads of a newborn's life to an expected, but indeterminate, future and degree of enlightenment. Events of past lives are remembered but without context are soon relegated to the dream world. Enlightenment however is retained as growth.

A spirit will hover above a new life form for days before making a decision to incarnate.

Nothing derogatory intended, nor do I see anything that could be considered as such.

I do think the metaphor, "Death is like taking off a tight shoe." To be apropos in the sense that the awareness which was perceived to be confined to the body/brain is finally released to expand to what it actually is, even though it was nothing other then that all along. This kind of death(even though nothing dies) happens to some while still healthy and alive in the body.

Note: a rant corner might be a good idea.

CodeBorg wrote:



We may have chosen but it wasn't this I that made a choice.

Gelisgesti wrote:



I think this 'spirit' you are referring to is nothing other then the awareness observing these words.

It is a statement like this that causes me to mention to you that you are sharing of a belief system -- and then deal with the angery response that provokes in you.

So--there is the possibility that there is nothing to let go of -- nothing to detach from -- but whether that is so or not, the fact that you have offered that statement is evidence that you are sharing of your belief system.

A university professor went to visit a famous Zen master. While the master quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen. The master poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring. The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself. "It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted. "You are like this cup," the master replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."