Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

Gelisgesti Laughing

Frank, you said:

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But there is the possibility that what we see around us is not a creation at all.

If you describe something as a "creation," you are implying a creator. Therefore, if it is possible that what we see is not a creation, we must allow for the possibility that it simply "is." The opposite of created is "existing" which implies that what we see has always existed, in one form or another, because otherwise it had at some point to come into existence or be "created." This is pretty basic God vs. the Big Bang but it must be considered when one tries to define spirit or soul and discuss what that is or where it came from.

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Frank wrote:

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What you have written here reminds me of the kind of thing theists sometimes do. They often say: "Look at the creation; there has to be a Creator."

So essentially, with absolutely no basis for doing so, they DEFINE everything around us as a "CREATION" -- which of course, necessitates a Creator.

But there is the possibility that what we see around us is not a creation at all.

You are making a generalisation about what I have said to fit into what you appear to love to do; put all theists in one bunch and generalize with non specific statements about them, that may or may not refer to some and be completely irrelevant to others.

I have not used the loaded words that you are SCREAMING at me, "CREATION" and Creator.

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I grant that "consciousness cannot be observed" -- although even that has arguments that can be made against it.

Of course arguments can be made against it but I doubt they hold water.

However do it. Let's hear the arguments against the observation that "consciousness cannot be observed" and see if they can stand up to scrutiny.

Assertions of counter arguments are not counter arguments.

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But to supposed that because of that -- THEREFORE "there is nothing to let go of because there is no one to let go" is a LEAP OF FAITH. It is a belief system.

No it's not.

Consciousness or awareness cannot be observed.
(you have agreed with a caveat)

So if you ARE consciousness and consciousness is unobservable it means you cannot observe yourself, and it follows that you do not know yourself (true self) through observation (subject-object) because there is nothing observable to observe. It also follows that you cannot let go of or grasp this unobservable Self because there is nothing to grasp or let go of. Nor is there any self that can let go. Who would do it?

Another way to put it; if there is only ONE of you, then you are the only one that can do any grasping or letting go, but since You are this unobservable, unknowable awareness how could you do anything, except observe?
(all this of course is dualistic)

If you are consciousness and consciousness cannot be observed there simply is nothing observable that is you, and therefore as I have said there is nothing to let go of and no one to let go. That is not a belief.

And there are many other conclusions or implications that can be made from this observation, e.g. that subject--object dualism is a lie, and that nondualism is the truth,.........which it can be argued are not beliefs.

And of course the whole thing is a paradox....

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But I have come to the conclusion that most people dealing with a belief system simply cannot see -- or cannot acknowledge that it is a belief system.

I agree with what Gelistgesti has said/alluded to:

Frank, if I may enter the fray .... to paraphrase ...... you believe that Twyvel's belief is belief and that your belief that his belief is belief is fact? Am I correct?

.....that your "conclusion" in the above sentence is a belief, or to use the word you like to use to distance yourself from theism, a guess.

You simply believe or guess that other peoples claims to know about gods and absolutes are not in fact that. And therefore your guess puts you in the same category as the ones you accuse of being fooled or gullible enough to claim to know something that is according to you only wishful thinking.

So can you acknowledge that your statement:

But I have come to the conclusion that most people dealing with a belief system simply cannot see -- or cannot acknowledge that it is a belief system.

.........is a belief? (a guess)

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If you want to believe there is nothing to let go because there is no one to let go -- do it. I will go so far as to commend you for your devotion to this notion.

And I will continue to call your attention to the fact that you are expressing a belief here -- not a fact.

Surely you see Frank that in your sentence above your claim to be calling my attention to the fact that I am expressing a belief is not a fact. It's a belief (guess) of yours.

It's a belief that you are presenting as a fact, exactly what you accuse others of doing. The truth is for all you or anyone knows I am a sage and know the truth of this existence beyond a shadow of a doubt. (no claims are being made here, Smile

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I think we're all parsing words here. Whether we believe in creation of evolution is based on faith and a belief system we learned from our environment. We all make our own decisions about god or evolution, and with our limited ability to prove either side of this coin, neither is right or wrong. c.i.

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Now who could argue with that? Smile

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hey booman, longtimenoc

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Twyvel

We've discussed this for over two years now -- and I don't think I can add anything else of value.

As far as I can tell, your comments are all a result of a belief system and I will continue to mention that whenever I deem it appropriate.

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Frank wrote:

I grant that "consciousness cannot be observed" -- although even that has arguments that can be made against it.

I appreciate this comment of yours even with its lack of assurance.

I think consciousness is who we are... and that it cannot be observed is unambiguous evidence. Unambiguous in that it is obvious to anyone who cares to look. And evidence that you (we) as awareness transcend the world of observable things (including thoughts) since awareness is not observable.

Specifically what that evidence points to or what the implications are that awareness cannot observe itself is certainly an interesting question and inquiry for many. But I think it does tends erode atheism and tips the agnostic scale towards theism(?), or something beyond what we take to be our every day ego 'self', and beyond the observable world,.... to pu it mildly.

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We've discussed this for over two years now -- and I don't think I can add anything else of value.

Fair enough.

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As far as I can tell, your comments are all a result of a belief system and I will continue to mention that whenever I deem it appropriate.

As far as I can tell

As I mentioned before if I or someone else knew that this existence was a collective illusion beyond a shadow of a doubt; that the physical world did not exist, in accordance with Zen, some Buddhist schools, Vedanta, etc., I suspect you would be still making the same comments as above, because you would not know.

That's fine,........bearing in mind that your comments (mine comments and other peoples comments) about what others know are guesses, even though in many cases I and others would agree with you, but they are guesses none the less.

Can they ever be anything more then guesses?

Yes, I guess, if one knows the truth.

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Thank you for your courteous reply.

I intend no insult in what I have said in the past nor in what I will respond here -- even if at times I am more terse than you.

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Specifically what that evidence points to or what the implications are that awareness cannot observe itself is certainly an interesting question and inquiry for many. But I think it does tends erode atheism and tips the agnostic scale towards theism(?), or something beyond what we take to be our every day ego 'self', and beyond the observable world,.... to pu it mildly.

Not on bet! This is over-reaching on a cosmic scale.

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As I mentioned before if I or someone else knew that this existence was a collective illusion beyond a shadow of a doubt; that the physical world did not exist, in accordance with Zen, some Buddhist schools, Vedanta, etc., I suspect you would be still making the same comments as above, because you would not know.

Replying to a hypothetical of this sort is usually the wrong thing to do -- but I'll give it a try.

I doubt you or anyone else could KNOW that this existence is an illusion. If you come across anyone who does KNOW this, we can discuss it at that time.

As you KNOW, however, I always state my agnosticism as a personal thing (I do not know...) and then state a guess about what others know -- (I suspect others....).

So you are correct. If someone KNOWS something I do not know, I will not try to fake things and pretend I KNOW it also. I will simply acknowledge that I do not know it. And, if the person is telling me that he/she KNOWS the truth about reality -- and if I suspect it is nothing more than a guess, I will mention that.

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That's fine,........bearing in mind that your comments (mine comments and other peoples comments) about what others know are guesses, even though in many cases I and others would agree with you, but they are guesses none the less.

Not sure of what you were getting at there -- the wording is confused. But I suspect you are saying that my guesses are guesses.

Yes they are. My guesses are definitely guesses.

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Frank, As evidenced in this forum, it's useless to argue which side of the coin is more true. c.i.

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Hey Setana,
...So-o-o rumors of your demise, etc., etc.,.......

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Frank wrote:

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Specifically what that evidence points to or what the implications are that awareness cannot observe itself is certainly an interesting question and inquiry for many. But I think it does tends erode atheism and tips the agnostic scale towards theism(?), or something beyond what we take to be our every day ego 'self', and beyond the observable world,.... to pu it mildly.

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Not on bet! This is over-reaching on a cosmic scale.

Well what does it mean to you that you (the awareness) cannot observe yourself?

For some it's baffling, a profound insight, a mystery, evidence that you are not your body, for others it's perhaps no big deal.

But this Witness, in(?) all of us, this unobserved observer is only the beginning of the insight, it's like landing on a new planet, even though it was there all along, and was you all along.

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I doubt you or anyone else could KNOW that this existence is an illusion. If you come across anyone who does KNOW this, we can discuss it at that time.

Of course you do, for you think (guess) that this existence is real, that the physical world is real. So how could anyone know it is an illusion if it isn't...............even though the guess that the material world is real is precisely that,................only a guess.

I however think (guess) that the so called physical world is not real, that it is an illusion. And of course from that position I doubt anyone could prove matter exists, for according to this position it doesn't.

I have come across people, in person but mainly through reading, whom I think know the truth; that this existence is an illusion, and I suspect JLNobody has also and perhaps others on this site. But that's not really the point as I think it doesn't make much difference to what others know or even believe, although some minds could be influenced.

As I said before, even if I (or anyone else) knew that this existence was an illusion you and others would probably consider it a guess, primarily because the knowing is personal; it has to be known individually, and even though it may be possible to pass on that knowledge as in Buddha transmission's(?), it still has to be experienced and/or known as/in your own being.

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cicerone imposterr wrote:

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Frank, As evidenced in this forum, it's useless to argue which side of the coin is more true. c.i.

I understand what you are saying, but unlike your analogy of a coin where both sides exist,

The physical world either exists or it does not.

Consciousness is either observable or it is not.

God either exists or god does not exist.

Only one is true, hence the endless human debate.........

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Consciousness exist when the truth that front and back meet to become coin is visualized and understood

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Gelis, Yes, but which side has more truth; head or tails? Flip it enough times, and it'll come out close to 50-50. Our observations are still limited - even when visually observed. c.i.

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CI, the truth is, as evidenced by it's neutrality in the percentages quoted, that it is a coin being utilized to decide an issue of greater magnitude and complexity than yes or no. Such is the nature of personal reality and the rational of granting each man the reality of his existance because to deny him is to deny yourself the reality of the coin which lies not in the result of the toss, but in the rational of the tossing.

Sooner or later the coin returns to the pocket, and the mind returns to the daily reality of your existance.

No man can dictate or stand in judgement of another man's thoughts without suffering the same injustice.

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But isn't that exactly the point? The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades were judgements made by religious zealots. It's never 'neutral' depending on who's reality we're speaking about. The coin never simply returns to the pocket. Somebody out there made a judgement. c.i.

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a
CI posted

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But isn't that exactly the point? The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades were judgements made by religious zealots. It's never 'neutral' depending on who's reality we're speaking about. The coin never simply returns to the pocket. Somebody out there made a judgement. c.i.

CI, made a judgement with a coin toss? Decision might be a better word choice, at least the persecuted would have a 50/50 chance with a coin toss.

Could religion be a metaphor for 'what a man is all about on the inside' instead of just a position on whether or not we all have a omnipotent benifactor?

I digress ..... My prior post was about allowing each man his reaity so that he in turn will allow yours .... unless his is harmful in sume manner (there in lies the rub but that is not for the now)

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Re: a

Gelisgesti wrote:

I digress ..... My prior post was about allowing each man his reaity so that he in turn will allow yours .... unless his is harmful in sume manner (there in lies the rub but that is not for the now)

But you are missing an important point here, Ge.

We certainly can allow each person his/her own interpretation, perspective, or guess ABOUT REALITY -- but to suppose that each person has his/her own reality is merely a guess.

Mind you -- THE REALITY may be that each individual has his/her own reality.

We don't know if that is so.

It is also possible (and I think, guess a bit more likely) that there is a REALITY that is independent of anyone's perception or guesses about it.

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Frank, when you leave home and arrive is your home always in the same location? If so, welcome to a small bit of your reality .... if not do you often wake up mornings to find you have been sleeping in a vacant lot? Wink

Personal reality exist or we would not be sharing this conversation .... I would be talking to the real 'Frankopisa'.

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Ge, The basis really is the decision made to go home or go elsewhere. The coin is only rhetorical. We made the judgement to go to the bar to have a drink. I decided to sit in front of my computer to post this trash, instead of sit in front of the t.v. and watch the news channel. Barring outside forces on what we plan to do, whether they be man-made or by nature, our reality is simply our actions and how we perceive each event. Sometimes we have a choice, and sometimes not. Most of the time, we think we can influence our choice, but can we? c.i.

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Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

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