Passage ...... Where do you go after you die

Frank, you tell Twyvel that he has a "very well estabalished [very rigid or very developed?] belief system." I can see that you (as well as most of us) are not following him very carefully. As I follow him--with great effort--he is not expressing beliefs (where in the world could one learn and remember such incredibly subtle beliefs?). Instead, he is trying to DESCRIBE for us the nature of (his) very careful OBSERVATIONS of experience. I congratulate him on how well he performs this virtually impossible task. His descriptions can only be followed, I'm afraid, by people who already have an inkling of what he is trying to say.

Oh I'm looking - very Zenful stuff, a little Walt Whitman, Alan Watts

Twyvel and I go back 2 years. He has been explaining his (what you call observations) in great detail. I have to disagree with you -- he actually is describing his belief system -- although I acknowledge that he intersperses lots of description, conjecture, and observations.

The only part that I ever comment on is the stuff that is presented as fact -- when it merely is belief.

Frank, could it be that since he is observing himself that he is, for the purpose of his own reality, acting as a mirror of understanding or translator for the observation. Think of it as answering your own questions at the instant they are posed ....

Can the observer be the observed ..... take it away Twyvel

Ge

I have no problem with anything Twyvel observes -- and over the years, I have agreed with several of his observations -- or at least, I have mentioned that my observations are similar.

But that does not negate the coments that I have made -- dozens of times.

Frank wrote:



It's presumptuous to constantly use the word 'we', as in "We do not know", or "We really do not know", don't you think Frank?

One cannot be passionately engaged and actively interested in every inquirer or perspective on questions of god's existence or ultimate reality etc., so how can one even attempt to represent all views with the use of the word 'we'? Let alone that one cannot claim to know what others know or do not know.

Other then that, what does the word 'we' represent, other then 'we all' or everyone?
------------------

Yes, as Frank has said we have been interacting off and on for a about two years and I was somewhat surprised to hear him say........

The implications of the fact that there are a lot of unknowns which you propose leave me cold.


............considering the countless threads Frank has been in over in abuzz discussing and speculating about the nature of existence, the universe, god(s) etc., speculating especially in many of ican's threads.

I know Frank is a passionate person (based on a lot of his writings) so I was off put by the word "cold", although I took it to be directed to the issue of consciousness so I said, so be it. .i.e. that Frank is left cold discussing the topic of consciousness, or more specifically the way I have been discussing it....so be it.

Gelisgesti wrrote:




Well one metaphor is the observer and observed are two ends of the same stick. Although the stick doesn't have any ends so all there really is is 'observing'. When you look out onto a landscape or scene is there an observer within your visual field? Do you see anyone seeing? When you observer your internal dialogue is there anyone observed that is observing ? Or is there just observing?

Then there is the quantum issue which someone else (perhapas JLNobody or Terry) might hopefully address. i.e. at the quantum level the measured object cannot be separated from the measuring subject, or the measurer from the measured. Observation is a cause in itself etc.

reality
Frank, I looked back at some earlier ABUZZ threads, found one with Twyvel, Bi-Polar Bear, NonDual, Fresco, Jespah, and even BoGoWo. I'm amazed that I didn't stay in touch with them. I've come to know them here on A2K.
Funny, but I still think--and I would feel this to be so even if Twyvel disagrees--that Twyvel's trains of thought, his examinations of the relationships of consciousness to self and the world are DESCRIPTIONS rather than expositions of logical process or doctrine. Husker mentioned Alan Watts. I used to go to his workshops on Wilshire Blvd, L.A. in the 60s. I also read verbatim talks by Krishnamurti. Watts talked ideas ABOUT mystical principles and truths; Krishnamurti, talked, in response to questions, in a manner revealing a mind in process, a mind examining and continually discovering the workings of consciousness. My characterization of Tywvel's talk resembles K more than it does W. I must admit that these are only my impressions; I would never argue that you are wrong in your assertion. It may be, for all I know, that Twyvel's perceptions have codified over the years into formulas that now come out of his mouth. But I doubt it. His utterances seem too fresh for that.
Anyway, I do regret the fact of missing you, Bo, Twyv, Fresco, over these last two years. You are all very stimulating thinkers, a joy to kibbitz with.
P.S. sorry to put you on the spot like this, Twyvel.

I suppose that I would have to agree
with Frank in many ways - although I would want
to point out that "I" will never know anything for
certain until I get there. That's a problem with people;
always obsessing about tomorrow, next year or the
frigging hereafter. So much fussing and fuming
over something that will not take place till they are
no longer here to REALLY share their opinions with
us on the topic. So... what point is there in all this?
Personally, it looks to me like we might just as well
discuss which way the wind is going to blow next year
on this exact date - it makes more sense. From a
physics point of view, energy is never created nor
destroyed; it can only be transformed.... now that says
alot about the nature of things. Chemically, we are
composed largely of water and everything around &
about us is made up of ATOMS. An atom is hardly a
stationary object. It is a study of the motion of poetry
or of poetry in motion - what we perceive to be so
REAL, so solid, so ...forever like you, me, a rock, your
dining room table...all made of atoms. Whirling dervishes ...
negatively charged particles buzzing about a positively
charged nucleus, or so they say....so what exactly are
we seeing? Feeling? Who knows? And when I do ... I do
promise you I will most likely not be returning to A2K to
fill you friends in on what ever the real scoop is; I will
already know, and you won't. Yet. Maybe that is the
point, it is a secret. And I just have to live my life out to
its end, like remaining in the theatre until the movie is
completely over......if you want to get to see the credits.

Babs, it's only a guess, but I think the reason people want to talk about death and the hereafter is that there's a possibility that this like is but a speck of time compared to a life we could have in eternity. And that's a little more intriguing than which way the wind will blow.

JLNobody

Your comments are noted -- and appreciated. I understand where you are coming from. Twyvel and I have discussed this so often I took it for granted that my comments were merely an extension of a long succession of comments we've made back and forth for a long time.

But I understand your position -- and in deference to it, I'll withdraw any past comments for now -- and if I come up against anything Twyvel says that looks like "belief" being presented as something else, I'll make specific mention of it immediately.

I hope Twyvel knows that all of this is done in good humor -- with passionate discussion being the only intention. Most of the people debating these points have not come to their positions without considerable thought -- and changing minds on a large scale is not something any of us expect.

ASIDE: Your eyes are fascinating.


Babs

Glad you stopped by -- and I get where you are coming from. I one time took a consciousness expansion seminar (something like EST, but a bit different) -- and one of the primary pieces of advice was: BE HERE NOW. Too much concern with the hereafter (or even with the tomorrows) probably do a major injustice to actually living one's life.

here and now
Frank, thanks. I appreciate your perspective on my behavior. By the way, Alan Watts was once surprised when his wife (?) told him that she couldn't imagine how a person could NOT be "here" and "now"--even if they tried.

Frank, you never said that about my eyes ......

cat
Yeah, but you're not a cat.
Frank, meow, meow, meow!

I agree with most and appreciate what Frank and JLNobody have said. Like most others what I write is based on a host of things and includes, beliefs, observations, guesses and things known etc., coming from self reflections and readings etc. and if I mislead others and it is pointed out I think I'm up front and will readily state whether I think it is a belief or something known.

That said, I'm looking for the truth, and I think that the greatest possible realization is the nature of the self, which in my view even trumps ultimate questions and god questions because it's more fundamental and potentially determines all else. It's also more practical, for ones perceptions, thoughts and so called 'self' is readily available.

If you are the universe; the entirety of what you perceive and think, it pretty much takes care of or covers the other questions, although that doesn't mean the mystery has grown smaller, it might be the opposite. After all it has been said by many sages, if not all, that your true nature is the void or emptiness.

I think the thing about being right here right now is there is no 'you' because conceptualizing stops.

A Wittgenstein quote. "If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present. Our life has no end just in the same way in which our visual field has no limits."

So the eternal NOW, that's really all there ever is.

The rest is imagined in the same way we create whole things from a universe of fragments, i.e. you or I never perceive or are aware of the our whole body at any one time, yet we complete the picture.

You may very well be totally correct Snood- it makes perfect sense
to me. Death is one of those "certainties" of life - we can try to
ignore it's coming, as the years begin to fly by us feeling like
only a few months have passed. There is always the fear of what is
unforeseen, of change, of death itself. I always think of the famous
quote; "a coward dies a thousand deaths; a hero dies but one"
I consider the topic of death often. The thought of death is able to
propel me into a totally different outlook on MY life, wherein; since
I have absolutely no real choice about when it's going to happen to
me - I DO have many opportunities and choices about the way in which
I "spend" my life. If I just can remember to consider the fact that
with every single day that passes, I draw nearer to death's door - then,
I also remember to make thoughtful decisions in the choices about
what I will do with my life on THIS DAY - in the here & now. In this
way death is the greatest teacher we could hope to have. Consider the
phrase - "I'm just sitting around killing time" - do I ever do that?
Yes. At times I just lose control of my thoughts & my actions - and
I do SPEND precious hours, days or even weeks of my life
doing absolutely nothing that I really WANT TO DO WITH MY
TIME. Since I have been disabled with rheumatoid arthritis, I
have all the free time in the world .... well, to some extent.
This freedom, in terms of time, comes at the expense of some
other types of freedom; like being able to go hiking in the
mountains or to go mountain biking through Cade's Cove in
the Great Smoky Mtns in TN or to even something as simple
as playing a piano. So .. I grieve these losses while I
steadfastly work toward being able to find other things that I
enjoy, like my photography. I didn't enter our local arts
festival here on the island this year - however I plan to
be ready for May 2004, IF I am still around to be here in May
2004. I HAVE begun to enter other photography contests
& to get over being so self absorbed with respect to how my
work is accepted or appreciated by other people. If it is "good
enough" or will other people just feel sorry for me because
my photography really sucks??? None of that matters worth
a hoot does it? It just matters that I AM DOING SOMETHING
I LOVE. I am "spending my time" in such a way as to be
caring & loving to myself. I can also say in all seriousness
that there is not ONE single time when I see my daughters,
my grandkids, and all the people I have been so lucky to
love in this life - not one time that I have missed the
chance to tell them how much I love them.

sanity
Babs-- --sanity is a delight to see.

It sure is JLN, and I might add - that it has taken me long
time & mucho dinero $$$$$$ spent on mental health to
even get CLOSE to this thing called sanity. Thanks for the
complitment, though I can't really take the credit for it.

( psst - I'm also an admirer of William James...)

d
There is no time but what you perceive as time stretches out to the nth of every direction. Each person/SELF exist at the center or hub and can travel in any degree of their existence of which they become aware through a process best termed 'enlightenment'. This travel includes a preset direction that is just that and no more .. a direction commonly known as death. As most things viewed from the hub you must travel that direction to experience it.
Ascension ...... There is always more. The hub of your existence begins with limited perception then spreads with orgasmic speed... there are some things you know and some things you feel ..... you die infinitely, a learning process that necessitates rebirth, remember, there is no time. At some point in your enlightenment you die into (again the feel and know dimension of life) the holographic, a flowering process.

Stop here .... digest.