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Should there be a gender-neutral form of he or she pronouns?

 
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 03:00 am
'They' 'their' works. So does 'One'. Otherwise, people stretch to understand what is being said. lol. Sometimes 'y'all' will do the trick.

I've noticed that she/he is falling out of common usage and people seem to be moving towards a neutral word, anyhoo. People rarely write he/she on signs or in personal notes.

So the ways I figures it is: Who cares if it's 'proper' or not?! Political correctness can bite my ass.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 12:34 pm
One thing I find annoying is when "they" is used for this purpose.

As in,

"When a student needs to find some food, they can go to the dorm cafeteria."

In editing, I rework a lot of those sentences (or awkward "he/ she" ones) to something like:

"When students need to find some food, they can..."

Plurals help, sometimes.

One isn't synonymous with "I", at all, but is a bit too formal for most usages.

"If one needs some food, one may go to the..."
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 12:40 pm
Interestingly, 'chancellor' seems to be neutral, since in English it was used both for the ("Kanzler") Schröderin as well as for the ("Kanzlerin") Merkel.

<Yes, I know .... >
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boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 12:51 pm
Oh your poor fingers!

I usually type s/he.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 01:03 pm
Embarrassed I use "they" all the time for this purpose.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 01:04 pm
I've gotten more annoying about these things since I became an editor.

Not that I wasn't annoying before.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 01:06 pm
It has been a long time since I've taken any courses for grammar or writing. And let's just say that my current job doesn't demand much in that respect.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 01:26 pm
yitwail wrote:
sometimes you can use "one" and "one's" instead of "he/she" "his/her" but it sounds a little quaint.


I still use it, I like sounding quaint. Inside, I am a fussy old lady, and I like to let everyone know that when I speak.

And I agree with Sozobe, I can't stand "they" used as a singular pronoun. Bleccchhh. I think we all need to rescue "one" from obscurity by using it regularly.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 03:41 pm
Yeah, that might work best.

Tico's "ou" intrigues me, never heard of that before.

When I'm not in editing mode (this happens, occasionally, honest), I'll usually write s/he. Saves space, but can't think of how it's pronounced. ("sh-HE", maybe.)
0 Replies
 
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Feb, 2006 03:53 pm
I have to say I'm wildly against "s/he." I am resistant to prosthetic syntax in general, really. It just looks so monstrous. If I were to read "s/he" aloud, I would just say "she or he"... in which case we might as well just write out "she or he."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 04:47 am
<they/their/them> are all fully grammatical gender neutral pronouns. They have been for hundreds of years. The only reason that some folks have a problem with them is that they continue to operate under the spell of their old grammar teachers.

English speakers have no problem with a singular and a plural 'you'. Why should 'they' be any different. Well, the truth is, it ain't any different.

1. "When a student needs to find some food, they can go to the dorm cafeteria."

In Soz's example, marked 1., 'a student' and 'they' are not an antecedent and a pronoun. This is a different grammatical relationship than,

"When she needs to find some food, she can go to the dorm cafeteria."

Here, we have a antecedent/pronoun relationship and ENLs are meticulous in following the rules regarding same.

In 1., "[T]hey are a "quantifier" and a "bound variable", a different logical relationship... {a student} does not refer to any particular person ...; it is simply a placeholder that keeps track of the roles that players play across different relationships."

The reason that ENLs do not follow the "rule" regarding supposedly gender neutral <he/him/his> is because it isn't an actual rule found in the real internal grammars we all have in our brains.

In Soz's sentence, 1., "[T]he [they] there does not, in fact, have plural number, because it refers neither to one thing or many things; it does not refer at all. ... variables are not the same thing as the more familiar "referential" pronouns that trigger number agreement (<he> meaning some particular guy, <they> meaning some particular bunch of guys).

... [gender neutral] <they> has the advantage of embracing both sexes and feeling right in a wider variety of sentences."


{portions in red from The Language Instinct by S Pinker}

Quote:


While your high-school English teacher may have told you not to use this construction,

[everyone-a teacher-each person/they-them-their],

it actually dates back to at least the 14th century, and was used by the following authors (among others) in addition to Jane Austen: Geoffrey Chaucer, Edmund Spenser, William Shakespeare, the King James Bible, The Spectator, Jonathan Swift, Daniel Defoe, Frances Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, Henry Fielding, Maria Edgeworth, Percy Shelley, Lord Byron, William Makepeace Thackeray, Sir Walter Scott, George Eliot [Mary Anne Evans], Charles Dickens, Mrs. Gaskell, Anthony Trollope, John Ruskin, Robert Louis Stevenson, Walt Whitman, George Bernard Shaw, Lewis Carroll, Oscar Wilde, Rudyard Kipling, H. G. Wells, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Edith Wharton, W. H. Auden, Lord Dunsany, George Orwell, and C. S. Lewis.

Singular "their" etc., was an accepted part of the English language before the 18th-century grammarians started making arbitrary judgements as to what is "good English" and "bad English", based on a kind of pseudo-"logic" deduced from the Latin language, that has nothing whatever to do with English.

(See the 1975 journal article by Anne Bodine in the bibliography.) And even after the old-line grammarians put it under their ban, this anathematized singular "their" construction never stopped being used by English-speakers, both orally and by serious literary writers. So it's time for anyone who still thinks that singular "their" is so-called "bad grammar" to get rid of their prejudices and pedantry!

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html

0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 05:52 am
boomerang wrote:
Oh your poor fingers!

I usually type s/he.


OH!

That's it!

I like.




I like y'all too, but only some understand y'all is singular, all y'all is the plural.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 07:35 am
Re: Should there be a gender-neutral form of he or she prono
Ray wrote:
Should there be a gender-neutral form of he or she pronouns?

You already have two of them. Depending on your politics, it can be either `he' or `they'. (`He' is gender-neutral in terms of discrimination -- which is the only reason to care about this matter at all -- unless you assume that grammatical gender equals biological gender. But this is not necessarily true.) After much awkwardness of the kind you described in your initial post, I have come to work around the problem with plurals. Whenever that's impossible, I write `he'. So far, the equality police hasn't arrested me.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 05:23 am
Re: Should there be a gender-neutral form of he or she prono
Thomas wrote:
Ray wrote:
Should there be a gender-neutral form of he or she pronouns?

You already have two of them. Depending on your politics, it can be either `he' or `they'. (`He' is gender-neutral in terms of discrimination -- which is the only reason to care about this matter at all -- unless you assume that grammatical gender equals biological gender. But this is not necessarily true.) After much awkwardness of the kind you described in your initial post, I have come to work around the problem with plurals. Whenever that's impossible, I write `he'. So far, the equality police hasn't arrested me.


Thomas,

There's no need to work around a rule that never was. That's the equivalent to accepting that flat-earthers should form part of a discussion on geography or geomorphology.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 06:17 am
After writing my last post, I noticed that I made a mistake I often accuse others of. Language -- like biological evolution, law, and economics -- is one of those topics where most people think they can competently comment on it, but only a few actually can. That's just what I did yesterday.

Instead of dumping my personal knee-jerk comments, biases, and half-memorized rules into this threads, I should have consulted my Chicago Manual of Style. This manual, unlike myself, actually has reliable grammatical authority. It has this to say on gender-neutrality:
    [b]5-204[/b] [i]Gender Bias[/i]. Consider the issue of gender-neutral language. On the one hand, it is unacceptable to a great many reasonable readers to use the generic masculine pronoun ([i]he[/i] in reference to no one in particular). On the other hand, it is unacceptable to a great many readers either to resort to nontraditional gimmicks to avoid the generic masculine (by using [i]he/she[/i] or [i]s/he[/i], for example) or to use [i]they [/i]as a kind of singular pronoun. Either way, credibility is lost with some readers. What is wanted, in short, is a kind of invisible gender neutrality. There are many ways to achieve such language, but it takes thought and often some hard work. See 5.43, 5.51, 5.78. [b]5-43[/b] [i]Antecedents of different genders [/i] [...] A special problem arises when the antecedent nouns are singular or of differing genders or an indeterminate gender, and are joined by [i]or[/i] or [i]nor[/i]. Using [i]he, his[/i], and [i]him[/i]as common-sex pronouns is now widely considered sexist, if not misleading, and picking the gender of the nearest antecedent may be equally misleading (e.g., [i]some boy or girl left her lunch box on the bus[/i]). A good writer can usually recast the sntence to eliminate the need for any personal pronoun at all. ([i]some child left a lunch box on the bus[/i].) See 5.49, 5.51, 5.204 [b]5-51[/b] [i]Special uses[/i] Some personal pronouns have special uses. (1) [i]He, him[/i] and [i]his[/i] have traditionally been used as pronouns of intermediate gender equally applicable to a male or female person. Because these pronouns are also masculine-specific, they have long been regarded as sexist when used generically, and their indeterminate-gender use is declining. (See 5.43 and 5.204) [...] [b]5-78[/b] [i]Article as a pronoun substitute[/i] An article may sometimes substitute for a pronoun. For example, the blanks in [i]a patient who develops the described rash on ___ hands should inform ___ doctor[/i] may be filld with the pronoun phrase [i]his or her[/i] or the article [i]the[/i]. See also 5.204 [b]5-49[/b] [i]Expressing Gender[/i] Only the third-person pronouns directly express gender. In nominative and objective cases, the pronoun takes the antecedent noun's gender. ([i]the president is not in her office today; she's at a seminar[/i]). In the possessive case, the pronoun always takes the gender of the possessor, not of the person or thing possessed ([i]The woman loves her husband[/i]) ([i]Thomas is visiting his sister[/i]) ([i]the puppy disobeyed its owner[/i]). Some nouns may acquire gender through personification, a nofigure of speech that refers to a nonliving thing as if it were a person. Pronouns enhance personification when a feminine or masculine pronoun is used as if the antecedent represented a female or male person (as was traditionally done, for example, when a ship or other vessel ws referred to as [i]she[/i] or [i]her[/i].

Source: University of Chicago Press: The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th edition. University of Chicago Press (2003).

So in other words, they have no easy answer either, but tend to discourage the use of `he' as gender-generic. Essentially, their advice in your matter comes down to this: `Be a good writer and eliminate the need for any personal pronoun at all'.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 06:43 am
Thomas wrote:
After writing my last post, I noticed that I made a mistake I often accuse others of. Language -- like biological evolution, law, and economics -- is one of those topics where most people think they can competently comment on it, but only a few actually can. That's just what I did yesterday.

Instead of dumping my personal knee-jerk comments, biases, and half-memorized rules into this threads, I should have consulted my Chicago Manual of Style. This manual, unlike myself, actually has reliable grammatical authority. It has this to say on gender-neutrality:

...

So in other words, they have no easy answer either. Essentially, their advice in your matter comes down to this: `Be a good writer and eliminate the need for any personal pronoun at all'.



Thomas,

Note the operative words, "Manual of Style". And further note how many editions it's now at, something like 12 or so. I forget what they were at when I was in university.

Style manuals and usage manuals are bad places to be looking for accurate information about English grammar. Style manuals set down little conventions for writing and one thing you should also note, style manuals differ from institution to institution. You can see how useless their information is; they too advocate working around a rule that was never a rule.

One can only wonder what their advice is on the relative pronouns, that/which; or their advice on split infinitives or ending a sentence with a preposition, all non-existent rules which have figure prominently in style manuals over the centuries.

Quote:


http://www.pbs.org/speak/speech/correct/decline/

Now contrast the approach to the problem taken by the Harbrace College Handbook, a standard text in college composition classes since its publication, in 1941. Its great virtue is that it is ideally organized to meet the needs of a teacher who may have to correct two or three hundred pages of student writing every week. Inside the back cover of the book is a table in which grammatical errors are classified into family, genus, and species, and are assigned code numbers. The point at issue is listed as: "6b(1) Agreement: Pronoun and Antecedent: Man, each, etc. as antecedent." Whenever a student makes an anyone . . . they sort of error, the instructor need only write "6b(1)" in the margin, and the student is referred to the corresponding section of the text, in which this point of usage is explained. There he can read (I quote from the seventh edition and omit some example sentences):

In formal English, use a singular pronoun to refer to such antecedents as man, woman, kind . . . anyone, someone, and nobody. In informal English, plural pronouns are occasionally used to refer to such words.
Caution: Avoid illogical sentences that may result from strict adherence to this rule.

ILLOGICAL Since every one of the patients seemed discouraged, I told a joke to cheer him up.

BETTER Since all the patients seemed discouraged, I told a joke to cheer them up.

These bare instructions give no reason at all for choosing the singular pronoun. In fact, there is no mention of an error in the use of the plural, which is labeled not "incorrect" or "illogical" but merely "formal," as if the difference between plural and singular were on a level with the difference between cop and policeman, or horse and steed.

The entry does touch on a point that is quite interesting to theoretical linguists, to the effect that English grammar does not generally allow the singular pronoun with an antecedent like everyone when that antecedent is not in the same clause. But the Handbook says only that the sentence is "illogical," giving no indication of what point of logic is violated. What is the student to make of that, especially since the Handbook has not explained the use of the singular as being "logical" in the first place? The student who finds "6b(1)" cropping up on his compositions may learn to rectify the error, but only in the way he learns to rectify his misspellings: by rote, learning nothing else in the process.

The linguists are at least forthright in their rejection of linguistic morality. Their opponents, the defenders of traditional values, are more deceptive. They talk a great deal about morality, but in millenarian tones, as if the rules of grammar were matters of revealed truth rather than the tentative conclusions of thoughtful argument.


These purveyors of grammatical rectitude, the Safires and the Buckleys, are the folks of the style manuals, all bluster and no common sense.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 06:50 am
JTT wrote:
One can only wonder what their advice is on the relative pronouns, that/which; or their advice on split infinitives or ending a sentence with a preposition, all non-existent rules which have figure prominently in style manuals over the centuries.

You know what? I'm a big fan of settling such disputes through hypothesis-testing rather than sounding off. So why don't we test your scornful hypothesis about style manuals in the following three steps? (1) You tell me what rule, if any, should govern the cases you mention. (2) You then predict what the Chicago Manual of Style will wrongly say about these matters. (3) I will test your prediction by looking it up. If there's a conflict between the manual and your prediction, we can argue further which side is correct. But I have a funny feeling that the Manual will say pretty much the same things you say about split infinitives, ending sentences with a preposition, and the like.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 07:16 am
Thomas wrote:
JTT wrote:
One can only wonder what their advice is on the relative pronouns, that/which; or their advice on split infinitives or ending a sentence with a preposition, all non-existent rules which have figure prominently in style manuals over the centuries.


You know what? I'm a big fan of settling such disputes through hypothesis-testing rather than arguing. To test your scornful hypothesis about style manuals, why don't you tell me what rule, if any, should govern the cases you mention, predict what the Chicago Manual of Style will wrongly say about it, and I'll test your prediction by looking it up.


I can not possibly predict what they might say on any one topic, Thomas and to do so would be a waste of time, mostly mine.

Better yet, let's see what some of the noted sources of the day have to say about style manuals and those who write them.

Read the entire article I quoted in my last posting.

Here's another article that may help.

Quote:


http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html

William Safire, who writes the weekly column "On Language" for the [New York Times Magazine], calls himself a "language maven," from the Yiddish word meaning expert, and this gives us a convenient label for the entire group.

To whom I say: Maven, shmaven! [Kibbitzers] and [nudniks] is more like it. Most of the prescriptive rules of the language mavens make no sense on any level. They are bits of folklore that originated for screwball reasons several hundred years ago and have perpetuated themselves ever since.



Quote:


Cambridge Grammar of the English Language

2.2 Disagreement between descriptivist and prescriptivist work

Although descriptive grammars and prescriptive usage manuals differ in the range of topics they treat, there is no reason in principle why they should not agree on what they say about the topics they both treat. The fact they do not is interesting. There are several reasons for the lack of agreement. We deal with three of them here: (a) the basis in personal taste of some prescriptivist writers' judgements; (b) the confusion of informality with ungrammaticality; and (c) certain invalid arguments sometimes appealed to by prescriptivists.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 10:07 am
Why fall back on an argument from authority when you could so easily check the facts? The Chicago Manual of Style talks at length about relative pronouns (5-58--5-63), that v. which (5-202), split infinitives (5.106, 5.160), and ending a sentence with a preposition (5-162, 5-169). I will quote all their advice back to you, and you tell me what's wrong with it.
    [b]5-58[/b] [i]Definition.[/i] A relative ponoun is one that introduces a subordinate (or relative) clause and relates it to the main clause. Relative pronouns in common use are [i]who[/i], [i]which[/i], [i]what[/i], and [i]that[/i]. [i]Who[/i] is the only relative pronoun that declines: [i]who[/i] (nominative), [i]whom[/i] (objective), [i]whose[/i] (possessive) ([i]the woman who presented the award[/i]), ([i]an informant whom he declined to name[/i]), ([i]the writer whose book was a bestseller[/i]). Although [i]who[/i] refers only to a person (but see 5.62), it can be used in the first, second, or third person. [i]Which[/i] refers only to an animal or a thing. [i]What[/i] refers only to a non-living thing. [i]Which[/i] and [i]what[/i] are used only in the second and third person. [i]That[[/i] refers to a person, animal, or thing, and can be used in the first, second, or third person. See also 5.48. [b]5-59[/b] [i]Antecedent.[/i] Usually, a relative pronoun's antecedent is a noun or pronoun in the main clause on which the relative clause depends. For clarity, it should immediately precede the pronoun. ([i] the diadem that I told you about is in this gallery[/i]) The antecedent may also be a noun ophrase or a clause, but the result can sometimes be ambiguous: in [i] the bedroom of the villa, which was painted pink[/i], does the [i]which[/i] refer to the bedroom or to the villa? [b]5-60[/b] [i]Omitted antecedent.[/i] If no antecedent noun is expressed [i]what[/i] can be used to mean [i]that which[/i] ([i]is this what you're looking for?[/i]). But if there is an antecedent, use a different relative pronoun: [i]who[/i] ([i]Where is the man who spoke?[/i]), [i]that[/i] (if the relative clause is restrictive, i.e., essential to the sentenc's basic meaning) {[i]Where are the hunters that Jones told us about?[/i]), or [i]which[/i] (if the relative clause is nonrestrictive, i.e., could be deleted without affecting the sentence's basic meaning) ([i]the sun, which is sinking brightly, feels warm on my face[/i]). See also 5.38. [b]5-61[/b] [i]Possessive forms. [/i]The forms [i]of whom[/i] and [i]of which[/i] are possessives ([i]the childe, the mother of hom we talked about, is in kindergarten[/i]) ([i]this foal, the sire of which Belle owns, will be trained as a hunter/jumper[/i]) (these forms have an old-fashioned sound and can often be rephrased more naturally ([i]the child whose mother we talked about is in kindergarten[/i]). The relative [i]what[/i] forms the possessive [i]of what[/i] ([i]The purpose of what?[/i]). The relative [i]that[/i] forms the possessive [i]of that[/i] (the preposition being placed at the end of the phrase) ([i]no legend that we know of[/i]) or [i]of which[/i] ([i]no legend of which we know[/i]). On ending a sentence with a preposition, see 5.169. [b]5-62[/b] [i]"Whose" and "of which".[/i] The relatives [i]who[/i] and [i]which[/i] can both take [i]whose[/i] as a possessive form ([i]whose substitutes for [i]of which[/i] ([i]a movie the conclusion of which is unforgettable[/i]) ([i]a movie whose conclusion is unforgettable[/i]). Some writers object to using [i]whose [/i]as a replacement for [i]of which[/i], especially when the subject is not human, but the usage is centuries old and widely accepted as preventing unnecessary awkwardness. Compare [i]the company whose stock rose faster[/i] with [i]the company the stock of which rose faster[/i]. Either form is acceptable, but the possessive [i]whose[/i] is smoother. [b]5-63[/b] [i]Compound relative pronouns. Who, whom, what, [/i] and [i]which[/i] form compound relative pronouns by adding the suffix [i]ever[/i]. The compound relatives [i]whoever, whomever, whichever,[/i] and [i]whatever[/i] apply universally to any or all persons or things ([i]whatever you do, let me know[/i]) ([i]whoever needs to write a report about this book may borrow it.[/i]) See also 5.202 under [i]whoever[/i]. [b]5-202, under [i]that, which.[/i][/b] These are both relative pronouns (see 5.58-62). In polished American prose, [i]that[/i] is used restrictively to narrow a category or identiy a particular item being talked about ([i]any building that is taller must be outside the state[/i]); [i]which[/i] is used nonrestrictively -- not to narrow a clas or identify a particular item but to add something about an item already identified. ([i]alongside the officer trotted a toy poodle, which is hardly a typical police dog.[/i]) [i]which[/i] should be used restrictively only when it is preceded by a prepeosition ([i]the situation in which we find ourselves[/i], Otherwise it is almost always preceded by a comma, a paranthesis, or a dash. In British English, writers and editors seldom observe the distinction between the two words. [b]5-106[/b] [i]Split infinitive[/i] Although from about 1850 to 1925 many grammarians stated otherwise, it is now widely acknowledged that adverbs sometimes justifiably separate the [i] to from the principal verb. ([i]they expect to more than double their income next year[/i]). See 5.160 [b]5-160[/b] [i]Adverb within verb phrase.[/i] [...] Sometimes it is perfectly appropriate to split an infinitive verb with an adverb to add emphasis or to produce a natural sound. See 5.106. A verb's infinitive or [i]to[/i] form is split when an intervening word immediately follows [i]to[/i] ([i]to bravely assert[/i]). If the adverb bears the emphasis in a phrase ([i]to boldly go[/i] ([i]to strongly favor[/i]), then leave the split infinitive alone. [...] [b]5-162[/b] [i]Definition[/i]. A preposition is a word or phrase that links an object (a noun or noun equivalent) to another word in the sentence to show the relationship between them. [...] Usually a preposition comes before its object, but there are exceptions. For example, the preposition can end a clause, especially a relative clause, or sentence ([i]this isn't the pen that Steve writes with[/i]). [...] [b]5-169[/b] [i]Ending a sentence with a preposition. [/i]The traditional caveat of yesteryear against ending sentences with prepositions is, for most writers, an unnecessary and pedantic restriction. As Winston Churchill famously said: "That is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I shall not put." A sentence that ends in a preposition may sound more natural than a sentence carefully constructed to avoid a final preposition. Compare [i]Those are the guidelines an outhor should adhere to[/i] with [i]Those are the guidelines to which an author should adhere.[/i] The "rule" prohibiting terminal preposition was an ill-founded superstition.

I really like Steven Pinker; chances are I like him every bit as much as you do. In fact, I posted the article you just cited to the `pet peeves' thread myself. Moreover, I thoroughly enjoy his polemic against self-appointed language mavens. But the Chicago Manual of Style isn't one of the language mavens Pinker polemicised against. You might have found it useful, JTT, to read this book before attacking it.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2006 05:45 pm
flushd wrote:
So the ways I figures it is: Who cares if it's 'proper' or not?! Political correctness can bite my ass.


YEAH!
0 Replies
 
 

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