Are Muslims the "Chosen People" of GOD?

ali87 wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Ali on another thread not sure where, you asked me what was found at the Great Mosque at Sana'a. My post got lost so I post it again

My initial reaction is two fold. First my suggestion (to find out) was to Raul not Ali. Secondly I dont like being shouted at (WHY THE CAPS?). But as you did use the word 'please', I will type out for your elucidation a couple of paragraphs from the Newstatesman magazine dated 10th Dec 2001.

Quote:

With no contemporary Muslim sources to refer to, a group of young historians working under the brilliant linguist Professor John Wansbrough at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) in the seventies developed new scholarly techniques, drawing heavily on earlier biblical scholarship. Following Wansbrough's lead, they decided to look at the Koran as a literary text, to compare it to other devotional writings of the period and to look at internal clues to its origin. They found that it owed much to Judaism, especially the Talmud, a collection of commentaries and interpretations of the Hebrew Bible. They concluded, tentatively, that in the form that survives, the Koran was compiled, if not written, decades after the time of Mohammed, probably by converts to Islam in the Middle East, who introduced elements from the religions previously dominant in the region. Drs PC and MC, also working at SOAS at the time, provided an even more devastating analysis by looking at the only surviving contemporary accounts of the Islamic invasion, written in Armenian, Greek, Aramaic and Syriac by Middle Eastern witnesses to the rise of Islam. They found that Islam, as represented by admittedly biased sources, was in essence a tribal conspiracy against the Byzantine and Persian empires with deep roots in Judaism, and that Arabs and Jews were allies in these conquering communities.

Apparent support for their conclusions came from finds made during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen, where labourers working in the roof discovered fragments of Korans that are among the oldest in existence. German scholars who studied the manuscripts discovered that some of the Koranic writing diverges from the authorised version, which by tradition is considered the pure, unadulterated word of God. What's more, some of the writing appears to have been INSCRIBED OVER EARLIER, "RUBBED-OUT" VERSIONS OF THE TEXT. This editing supports the belief of Wansbrough and his pupils that the Koran as we know it does not date from the time of Mohammed. AP, professor of Islamic history at the University of Victoria in Canada, and the author of a revisionist history of Islam published by Routledge, said: "The Sana'a manuscripts [are] part of the process of filling in the holes in our knowledge of what might have happened".

I have refered by initial only to certain people...I dont know why I should feel protective in this way...of course their work is in the academic domain.

fair enough...

OK got that boys and girls? Ali has read the above, and comments "fair enough" (Thats all he has to say, he goes on to ask another completely different question about the Flood)

By "fair enough" Ali is clearly in general in agreement with the Newstatesman article.

So he accepts the Koran was not written in the time of Mohammed. That the text of the Koran now is not the same as the original, and that Islam itself is a bastardised version of Judaism.

Excellent we are making progress Ali.

[Regarding the Flood, I couldnt give a damn if the bible was referring to the whole world, part of the world, or just to Noah's boating arena.]

ali87 wrote:

"Zoroaster had one God and I find him to be a very interesting character indeed. "

YES HE WAS MY PROPHET WAAY BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN, AND HE TAUGHT HIS PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, but "PAUL" NOT "JESUS" TAUGHT IDOL WORSHIPPING, SO THERFORE ILL TAKE MY DEAR PROPHET THAT CAME BEFORE JESUS, RATHER THAN CHRISTIANITY. I WILL TELL YOU AGAIN PERSIANS HATED CHRISTIANITY SO MUCH BECAUSE THEY KNEW IT WAS CORRUPT AND THEY WERE A CIVILIZED NATION, WHEN JESUS'S PEOPLE WERE LIVING ON TREES AS MONKEYS AND SWIMMING IN THEIR DADDY'S SACKS PERSIA WAS CIVILIZED, READ ABOUT BAGHDAD "THE CITY OF LIGHT" PERSIANS CAME AND FLOURISHED THAT CITY. THEY HAD KNOWLEDGE AND THEY SAW THE UGLY TRUTH IN CHRISTIANITY.


THEY HATED IT SO MUCH AND THEY EVEN HAD A "HOLY **** WAR" WITH THE ROMANS OVER IT.

Yes Zoroaster was a great prophet.

I would like you to show me one place where Paul the apostle in any way shape or form taught idolatry in the new testament of the Bible. That is where you and radical Islam (if they believe Paul worshiped idolatry) are dead wrong... No where in the entire writings did Paul ever tell a single Christian to worship Jesus...

Here is where your teachers are "guessing" about the Bible and they have "no" idea what they are talking about. You believe these false teaching about the Bible rather than looking for yourself, that is not very smart or scientific.

These false teaching just teach hate. Just like the Christians who believe Jesus is God and pray to him do not read the Bible but listen to the teachings and traditions of men who do not even know what Paul really had to say about idolatry.

Also Nimrod who founded Babylon with his father Cush was one of the worst idolaters that ever lived. He was an early king of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I would not be too proud about that. His religion was also borrowed by the Greeks, Egyptians, Romans and even the Norse. In fact we can thank Babylon for the majority of idolatry in our world today... The Islamic Persians when the were fighting the Greeks were only fighting a system that initially started in their own back yard.

All you have to go do is dig in the desert in Iraq/Iran and you will find your own idolatry... LOTS OF IT. Before you go pointing your finger at Christians whose leader, Paul, directed us to only worship ONE God in spirit you might realize you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.

The Hebrews never made a religion out of idolatry. Only the "fallen" of the Hebrews left the faith of monotheism to worship idols.

Nimrod of Babylon on the other hand openly worshiped in idolatry and infected the world (Greeks, Romans etc) with it. I would not be very proud of that.

The Romans were corrupt and it was the paganism of Nimrod/Babylon/Iraq that corrupted them...

Ephesians 4:2-16
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Paul the Apostle wrote there is one God... now where do you find idolatry in that?

Your "teachings" of the Christian Bible are simply WRONG. Why don't you try reading it yourself for a change rather than teaching what others tell you who don't know what they are talking about.

Just because many Christians have decided to worship Jesus does not mean that is what the Bible has instructed them to do... think about that.

It was Paul who forbid the worship of statues/idols in Rome on Mars hill. He pointed out they had a tribute to the "unknown God" on Mars hill and that they had been worshiping the true God and not knowing it. This nearly cost him his life at the time for standing against relic worship and the statues of Diana. This relic worship came from Babylon...

You have your religious facts backwards my friend...

its just teenage angst

Ali

since you claim your religion was not a bastardized version of Judaism why do you insist that it is from the line of Abraham. The original Jew.
On the other hand,
While I am at it I should point out that Christianity owes it's existence to Judaism. Without it would the Christian religion have had a structure to build on?
The entire concept of creation and the ten commandments that Christianity leans so heavily upon are I should remind you Hebrew concepts.

Therefore when you claim Islam is a bastardized form of Judaism. I would be tempted to ask what than is Christianity?

HEs starting to annoy me and I usually put up with alot, even dys.

Terah used to make images. Going out one day, he told his son Abraham to sell them. When a man came to buy, Abraham asked him how old he was. Fifty or sixty years, he replied. Strange, said the other, that a man sixty years of age should worship things hardly a few days old! On hearing which the man, ashamed, passed on.

(This is the smart alec teen-ager Abraham working in his fathers store. This is not wise, it is smart ass punk stuff.) DH

Then a woman carrying in her hand a cup of wheaten flour said, Place this before the idols.

On which, Abraham, getting up, took his staff in his hand, and having broken the idols with it, placed the staff in the hand of the biggest.

(This is clearly a case of a willful and disobedient teen-ager in need of some serious attitude adjustment. These 'idols' were like the souvenoirs and china dolls that have been around forever apparently. He is wrecking his fathers livlihood? This is suposed to be a good and wise thing?) DH

His father coming up, cried, "Who hath done all this?" mad.gif

Abraham said, "What can be concealed from thee? A woman carrying a cup of wheaten flour asked me to place it before the gods; I took and placed it before them; one said, I will eat it first, and another, I will eat first. Then the big one took the staff, and broke them all in pieces." wacko.gif

(OK, here it comes-The big lie! Typical teen-ager. But what makes it so sad is that this teen age liar is the father of (count them) THREE major world religions, pretty much based on this story. Sadder still...it is a stupid lie....like all the rest that will follow it.) DH

His father: "Why do you tell such a foolish tale to me? Do these know anything?"

He answered, "Does thine ear hear what thy mouths speaks?"

(This kid is a real smart mouth, his parents need to do something with him.) DH

On this his father seized and made him over to Nimrod, who bade him worship Fire.

Abraham: "Rather worship Water that putteth out Fire."

Nimrod: "Then worship Water."

Abraham: "Rather worship that which bringeth Water."

Nimrod: "Then worship the Cloud."

Abraham: "In such case, let us worship Wind that drives away the Cloud."

Nimrod: "Then worship Wind."

Abraham: "Rather let us worship Man that standeth against the Wind."

On this Nimrod closed:- "If thou arguest with me about things which I am unable to worship other than Fire, into it I will cast thee; then, let the God thou worshippest deliver thee there from."

So Abraham went down into the flames, and remained there safe and unhurt.

RexRed
Yes Hebrew would be more appropriate. However that is just splitting hairs. Abraham according to the bible was the father of Judaism and the first Hebrew {Jew}. Which in turn fathered Christianity.

You call Christianity the fulfillment of Judaism." I on the other hand call it a corruption of Judaism. ..

Abraham was Muslim; he even built the Kaaba.

Funny, I don't see anything (in my copy of the bible at least) about Abraham raping people or orchestrating gang rapes, or poisoning wells, or stabbing people or flying airplanes into buildings, or making suicide bombers out of little kids or establishing schools at which little other than hatred and self pity are taught.