1
   

Hamas Wins !!!

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 03:56 pm
I wonder if Hamas is dismayed that they won? Perhaps that was never their intent? It is for darn sure that the other Arab nations opposed to Israel never wanted a peaceful, complacent, law abiding Palestine or they would have ceded a small tract of their own lands for a Palestinian homeland and would have ensured food, clothing, medicine etc. for the Palestinians, none of which has been forthcoming.

Instead they demand the tiny State of Israel, smaller than most American counties, cede part of its territory and provide full rights of citizenship to the Palestinians, knowing that is impossible. And thus, they can justify their righteous indignation against Iraelites who so 'abuse' their Arab cohabitants.

A Hamas government is going to make this much more difficult.

They aren't going to be happy until Israel packs up and leave or is obliterated from the face of the Earth.

And I am pretty darn sure they won't be happy even then.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 03:59 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Instead they demand the tiny State of Israel, smaller than most American counties, cede part of its territory and provide full rights of citizenship to the Palestinians, knowing that is impossible.


Would that be cede part of its annexed territory or just cede part of its territory?
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 04:00 pm
Hamas leader sets conditions for truce
Zahar: Israel must withdraw to pre-1967 borders

Sunday, January 29, 2006; Posted: 3:28 p.m. EST (20:28 GMT)

Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar tells CNN that a 'long-term hudna' is possible with Israel. GAZA CITY (CNN) -- A leader of Hamas, the militant group that last week became the controlling force in Palestinian politics, laid out a series of conditions Sunday that he said could lead to years of co-existence alongside Israel.

The conditions included Israel's retreating to its pre-1967 borders and releasing Palestinian prisoners.

Mahmoud al-Zahar, the top Hamas official in Gaza, told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" that a "long-term hudna or long-term truce" is possible. He would not commit to negotiating with Israel and would not say whether recognizing Israel's existence is a long-term possibility.

At Israel's Cabinet meeting, acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Hamas must renounce violence for his country to negotiate with the new Palestinian leaders. (Full story)

"Israel believes there is great importance in putting together a unified international position that will make clear to the Palestinians that it is impossible, under any circumstances, to accept a Palestinian Authority that part of it or more than that is an armed organization that calls for the destruction of Israel," Olmert said.

Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz issued a warning to Hamas, saying if the organization resorted to terror attacks, it would be the subject of an "unprecedented attack."

Speaking from Gaza City, Zahar said if Israel "is ready to give us the national demand to withdraw from the occupied area [in] '67; to release our detainees; to stop their aggression; to make geographic link between Gaza Strip and West Bank, at that time, with assurance from other sides, we are going to accept to establish our independent state at that time, and give us one or two, 10, 15 years time in order to see what is the real intention of Israel after that."

"We can accept to establish our independent state on the area occupied [in] '67," he said. Israel took control of the West Bank and Gaza in the Six-Day War of 1967.

Zahar did not say how long an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza would be acceptable. Key conditions could allow Palestinians to give a "long-term hudna or long-term truce," and "after that, let time heal," he said.

A "hudna," historically, has referred to a long pause in hostilities, during which armies prepared for later battles.

Will Hamas recognize Israel?
But asked about Hamas' call for Israel's destruction, Zahar would not say whether that remains the goal. "We are not speaking about the future, we are speaking now," he said.

Zahar argued that Israel has no true intention of accepting a Palestinian state, despite international agreements including the Road Map for Middle East peace.

Until Israel says what its final borders will be, Hamas will not say whether it will ever recognize Israel, Zahar said. "If Israel is ready to tell the people what is the official border, after that we are going to answer this question."

Israeli and Palestinian leaders have said final borders must be determined through negotiations.

"Negotiation is not our aim. Negotiation is a method," Zahar said.

Hamas has orchestrated numerous terrorist attacks, killing and wounding scores of civilians -- most, though not all, Israelis. The United States considers Hamas, which also operates an extensive social services network, a terrorist organization.

Asked whether Hamas would renounce terrorism, Zahar argued the definition of terrorism is unfair.

Israel is "killing people and children and removing our agricultural system -- this is terrorism," he said. "When the Americans [are] attacking the Arabic and Islamic world whether in Afghanistan and Iraq and they are playing a dirty game in Lebanon, this is terrorism."

He described Hamas as a "liberating movement."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/29/hamas.interview/
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 06:30 pm
Most wars are not terminated until the utter and complete defeat of one side or the other, along with total surrender of the loser is attained. If the Palestinians have chosen to not co-exist, then they will either have to fight to totally exterminate the nation of Israel, and if they lose, take the consequences, which may involve widespread death and suffering, otherwise they should simply give up now and choose to peacefully co-exist.

The way I see it, be careful what you ask for, you might get it. Hamas wanted to win, now they've won. Now they can choose to put their actions where their mouth is or not. There may be many consequences to this that they do not really truly want to see. If you talk tough, eventually somebody may challenge you to put up or shut up. When will mankind ever learn?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 08:50 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I wonder if Hamas is dismayed that they won? Perhaps that was never their intent? It is for darn sure that the other Arab nations opposed to Israel never wanted a peaceful, complacent, law abiding Palestine or they would have ceded a small tract of their own lands for a Palestinian homeland and would have ensured food, clothing, medicine etc. for the Palestinians, none of which has been forthcoming.

Instead they demand the tiny State of Israel, smaller than most American counties, cede part of its territory and provide full rights of citizenship to the Palestinians, knowing that is impossible. And thus, they can justify their righteous indignation against Iraelites who so 'abuse' their Arab cohabitants.

A Hamas government is going to make this much more difficult.

They aren't going to be happy until Israel packs up and leave or is obliterated from the face of the Earth.

And I am pretty darn sure they won't be happy even then.


I imagine that Hamas has mixed feelings about winning.

I doubt they expected they would.

Now that they have, their position on the eradication of Israel becomes national policy. Will the rest of the world have the balls to condemn such a policy? We'll see.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 09:00 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Now that they have, their position on the eradication of Israel becomes national policy. Will the rest of the world have the balls to condemn such a policy? We'll see.


If a terrorist organization is no longer a group of shadowey terrorists, but now an identifiable government, does this situation lend itself to the conclusion that an official conventional war has been declared by them, so that their government can be targeted to be totally eliminated and removed by weaponry? Just a question. If I was a moderate and peace loving Palestinian, I would be mighty worried now.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 09:09 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
Hamas leader sets conditions for truce
Zahar: Israel must withdraw to pre-1967 borders

Sunday, January 29, 2006; Posted: 3:28 p.m. EST (20:28 GMT)

Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar tells CNN that a 'long-term hudna' is possible with Israel. GAZA CITY (CNN) -- A leader of Hamas, the militant group that last week became the controlling force in Palestinian politics, laid out a series of conditions Sunday that he said could lead to years of co-existence alongside Israel.

The conditions included Israel's retreating to its pre-1967 borders and releasing Palestinian prisoners.

Mahmoud al-Zahar, the top Hamas official in Gaza, told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" that a "long-term hudna or long-term truce" is possible. He would not commit to negotiating with Israel and would not say whether recognizing Israel's existence is a long-term possibility.

At Israel's Cabinet meeting, acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Hamas must renounce violence for his country to negotiate with the new Palestinian leaders. (Full story)

"Israel believes there is great importance in putting together a unified international position that will make clear to the Palestinians that it is impossible, under any circumstances, to accept a Palestinian Authority that part of it or more than that is an armed organization that calls for the destruction of Israel," Olmert said.

Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz issued a warning to Hamas, saying if the organization resorted to terror attacks, it would be the subject of an "unprecedented attack."

Speaking from Gaza City, Zahar said if Israel "is ready to give us the national demand to withdraw from the occupied area [in] '67; to release our detainees; to stop their aggression; to make geographic link between Gaza Strip and West Bank, at that time, with assurance from other sides, we are going to accept to establish our independent state at that time, and give us one or two, 10, 15 years time in order to see what is the real intention of Israel after that."

"We can accept to establish our independent state on the area occupied [in] '67," he said. Israel took control of the West Bank and Gaza in the Six-Day War of 1967.

Zahar did not say how long an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza would be acceptable. Key conditions could allow Palestinians to give a "long-term hudna or long-term truce," and "after that, let time heal," he said.

A "hudna," historically, has referred to a long pause in hostilities, during which armies prepared for later battles.

Will Hamas recognize Israel?
But asked about Hamas' call for Israel's destruction, Zahar would not say whether that remains the goal. "We are not speaking about the future, we are speaking now," he said.

Zahar argued that Israel has no true intention of accepting a Palestinian state, despite international agreements including the Road Map for Middle East peace.

Until Israel says what its final borders will be, Hamas will not say whether it will ever recognize Israel, Zahar said. "If Israel is ready to tell the people what is the official border, after that we are going to answer this question."

Israeli and Palestinian leaders have said final borders must be determined through negotiations.

"Negotiation is not our aim. Negotiation is a method," Zahar said.

Hamas has orchestrated numerous terrorist attacks, killing and wounding scores of civilians -- most, though not all, Israelis. The United States considers Hamas, which also operates an extensive social services network, a terrorist organization.

Asked whether Hamas would renounce terrorism, Zahar argued the definition of terrorism is unfair.

Israel is "killing people and children and removing our agricultural system -- this is terrorism," he said. "When the Americans [are] attacking the Arabic and Islamic world whether in Afghanistan and Iraq and they are playing a dirty game in Lebanon, this is terrorism."

He described Hamas as a "liberating movement."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/29/hamas.interview/


Now comes the blather for worldwide consumption. Even the coarsest of brigands have developed media savy.

The way to peace is pretty simple for Palestine:

1) Unequivocally recognize the right of Israel to exist.
2) Totally cease and desist from terrorist actions aimed at Israel
3) Give up the notion of ever having control of any portion of Jerusalem
4) Give up the demand for The Right of Return.

Considering that Palestine, to the extent it is an actual nation, is a pitifully weak and dependent one, it doesn't have a lot to leverage.

It's hard to imagine that successive generations of Palestinians are willing to sacrifice their futures and the futures of their children for the quixotic dream of conquering Israel. Hamas members have every reason to pursue this aggressive course; It makes them feel important and noble. It allows them to shoot guns off into the air. It enables them to strut and preen and claim heroism. It gives the an elite status in their community.

Short of tectonic changes in the geo-political landscape, there is absolutely no chance that the goals of Hamas will be realized. The Palestinians are throwing away their lives and the lives of their children for a future that will never be realized.

When does the average Palestinian stand up and say: "Enough! Let us build a nation with the lands we can reasonably expect to own and forget about Israel and start thinking about our own futures."
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jan, 2006 10:22 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
D'artagnan wrote:
Yesterday's terrorists are today's freedom fighters. Take Menachim Begin. Do you know his history during the British occupation of Palestine, Brandon?

Isreal does not have an official policy of going into public places in a deliberate attempt to kill non-combatants as the primary, intended target.


That's as may be, but doesn't relate to what I said. My point (let me help you out, Brandon) is that political groups sometimes evolve...
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jan, 2006 06:25 pm
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 06:34 am
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060131/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestinianhamastalks_060131113719

Quote:
LONDON (AFP) - The United States and Europe have agreed to continue critical funding to Palestinians but warned election victors Hamas that its future government must give up violence and recognize Israel.

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, however, derided US and European threats to put financial pressure on his Islamist group as being "in vain", saying they amounted to forcing it to abandon its struggle for freedom.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her partners in the Quartet for Middle East peace -- the United Nations, Russia and the European Union -- pledged overnight Monday in London to keep money flowing into Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas's interim caretaker administration.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 06:59 am
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Instead they demand the tiny State of Israel, smaller than most American counties, cede part of its territory and provide full rights of citizenship to the Palestinians, knowing that is impossible.


Would that be cede part of its annexed territory or just cede part of its territory?

Israel was established by the United nations. I believe that other territory was only annexed punitively after they were attacked. Any legitimate claim the Palestinians might have had to anything has been invalidated by the longstanding policy of their representatives to intentionally target innocents for murder.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 07:01 am
D'artagnan wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
D'artagnan wrote:
Yesterday's terrorists are today's freedom fighters. Take Menachim Begin. Do you know his history during the British occupation of Palestine, Brandon?

Isreal does not have an official policy of going into public places in a deliberate attempt to kill non-combatants as the primary, intended target.


That's as may be, but doesn't relate to what I said. My point (let me help you out, Brandon) is that political groups sometimes evolve...

My point is that any sins on Israel's part are trivial compared to the terrible evil of the acts committed in the Paletinians' behalf for decades.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 07:15 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
I believe that other territory was only annexed punitively after they were attacked.


You are free to believe in whatever you want, Brandon.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2006 10:46 am
Israeli Group calls the wall land robbery, calls for protest in Bil'in George Rishmawi-IMEMC - Friday, 20 January 2006, 09:26

As the session of the Israeli Supreme Court regarding the construction of the wall on the land of the West Bank village of Bil'in near Ramallah nears, the villagers continue their nonviolent resistance to the wall.
This week, the Israeli peace bloc, "Gush Shalom" issued a call for its supporters to join the weekly anti-wall nonviolent protest in the village.

"On the eve of the Supreme Court's decision, we shall TODAY, Friday, take part in the big Israeli-Palestinian demonstration in Bil'in," the call which came in a press release said.

"On February 1st the Supreme Court will convene to discuss Bil'in's petition against the wall. Bil'in struggle became the symbol of the fight against the apartheid fence - the Palestinian-Israeli solidarity is a crucial part of this struggle. We invite all people - those that already stood with us in Bil'in, and those who still didn't - to come and join us in the struggle."

Gush Shalom is an Israeli peace movement that describes itself as "an extra-parliamentary organization, independent of any party or other political grouping. Some of its activists do belong to political parties"

The primary aim of Gush Shalom is to influence Israeli public opinion and lead it towards peace and conciliation with the Palestinian people with a goal to end the Israeli occupation, on the basis of pre-1967 borders and call for a special arrangement under which East Jerusalem (Including Haram Al-Sharif, known as Temple Mount) to be the capitol of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Wailing Wall) to be the capitol of Israel.

The court ruling will decide whether it will allow the state to build the wall on the land of the village, which, if approved will confiscate some 2000 dunams, (500 acres) to the separation wall.

The people of Bil'in, have been demonstrating every Friday, in a non-violent way, in spite of the chain of collective punishments that includes arrests by the army.

Israeli and International peace activists of the International Solidarity Movement have always joined the people of Bil'in in their attempts to stop the wall.

In its press released Gush Shalom called the wall land robbery.

"For almost a year now, we demonstrate regularly together with our partners from Bil'in against the wall and the settlements that rob over half of the village's lands,"

According to Gush Shalom, the Israeli army has "planted" more than once special units and units of camouflaged as Arabs (mistaarvim), with the aim to transform the non-violent demonstrations in to violent ones.

As part of the army's attempt to foil nonviolent actions, troops invaded the village several times at on Thursday night and made arrests. The army tried to stop the Israelis to come but couldn't prevent solidarity.

The group accused the wall to be planned with the intention to annex as much West Bank settlements as possible to Israel, and not on security basis.

"We've managed to show that the path of the wall is not security- but settlement driven," Gus Shalom said.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 07:51 pm
World Bank Chief Backs Continued Palestinian Aid


/noticias.info/ Paul Wolfowitz, president of the World Bank, said yesterday that the Bank should continue delivering aid to the West Bank and Gaza in spite of last week's electoral victory for the militant Islamic organization Hamas, reports The Financial Times.

Wolfowitz said the Bank was operating in Palestinian areas at the request of the "quartet" of the US, the United Nations, Russia and the European Union. "What we do now depends on what the quartet asks us to do," he said. "I hope they will ask us to stay." The Bank chairs the committee of donors for the West Bank and Gaza, which disburses about $1bn a year. The EU, which is the largest single donor, recently suspended some of the aid that was funneled directly into the budget of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in protest at financial mismanagement.

Donors have been warning Hamas since the election that the aid could be withheld or delivered through other routes if the organization did not renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. Wolfowitz said that keeping aid flowing would help the transition to the creation of a Palestinian state alongside Israel and keep up pressure for Palestinian reform.

Reuters writes that Wolfowitz said "It will help the whole process if the life of the average Palestinian improves. We ought to be the last people to disengage." The Bank chairs the committee of donors for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Authority is the biggest single employer in the those areas and relies on foreign aid to stay afloat. Last year, it received 500 million euros ($606.4 million) from the European Union and more than $200 million from the United States.

Al-Bawaba (UK) meanwhile reports that Israel announced on Tuesday that it would suspend its monthly payments to the Palestinian Authority until after a policy review regarding the recent Palestinian elections and Hamas' rise to power.A payment of $55 million, much of which goes towards salaries of some 140,000 Palestinian was supposed to have been handed over to the PA on Wednesday, according to Reuters.

The National Post (Canada) further reports that the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) said its $25-million in annual assistance to Palestinians, and last year's pledge of an additional $37-million, were being re-examined. Some of Canada's contributions go directly to the Palestinian Authority, which will soon be controlled by the hard-line Hamas, considered by Ottawa to be a terrorist group because of its campaign of suicide bombings. The rest goes to non-governmental organizations such as Oxfam, international agencies such as UNICEF and the World Bank, and federal agencies, to finance programs in the West Bank and Gaza.

The Associated Press writes that the Belgian government suspended two new development projects in the Palestinian territories until it becomes clear whether Hamas will recognize the state of Israel, renounce violence and disarm, officials said Tuesday. The development and cooperation ministry confirmed that an electrical power project in the West Bank and an economic aid project in Gaza totaling EUR4 million will not go ahead for the time being, the ministry said.

The Associated Press meanwhile notes in a separate piece that a senior Hamas official said Tuesday the Islamic militant group is already looking for new sources of funding after the international community threatened to cut off aid, warning that Hamas will not be "blackmailed."
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 08:05 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
The Associated Press meanwhile notes in a separate piece that a senior Hamas official said Tuesday the Islamic militant group is already looking for new sources of funding after the international community threatened to cut off aid, warning that Hamas will not be "blackmailed."
Interesting choice of words, that. Withholding handouts if terrorist ambitions are not renounced constitutes blackmail? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 08:10 pm
Occom Bill, this week Hamas is saying they are seeking a two state solution based on the 1967 borders. Maybe Israel should test them on that. It is the desire of most Palestinians and most Israelis.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 08:19 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
Occum Bill, this week Hamas is saying they are seeking a two state solution based on the 1967 borders. Maybe Israel should test them on that. It is the desire of most Palestinians and most Israelis.
Without hesitation I concur with that solution. However, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect Hamas to alter its charter to remove the highly inflammatory terrorist like intentions in return for such a demand, let alone continued financing from Israel's friends and Allies (or any other civilized source). Don't you?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 08:46 pm
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
I believe that other territory was only annexed punitively after they were attacked.


You are free to believe in whatever you want, Brandon.


OE,
You do realize that EVERY country on earth has expanded its borders by conquest at on time or another.

I dont know where in Eurpoe you live,but lets take two examples.

It used to be said that "the sun never set on the British Empire",and that was true.
They had colonies and territories all over the world.
ALL of them aquired by military conquest.

France also has colonies all over the world,also gained by military conquest.

The US gained ALL of its territory (except Alaska),by military conquest.
Mexico did the same thing.

When Israel is attacked,then any territory they take from their attacker is legitimate "spoils of war".

While it would be nice if Israel withdrew,there is no reason they should.
They were attacked,they fought back,they won.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 08:49 pm
Occum Bill, I gotta admit to feeling optimistic over this turn of events. The overtures from Hamas this week haven't diminished that. The guy who seems to be the one who will form the government and become PM has been saying some good things. "Haniyeh represents the school of thought in Hamas that believes in striking a long-term hudna (temporary truce) with Israel. In a series of statements over the past few days, Haniyeh announced that Hamas would be prepared to accept an independent state within the 1967 boundaries.

In return, it would be prepared to reach a long-term hudna with Israel, leaving the final resolution of the conflict to future generations.

Hamas sources said Haniyeh played a significant role in persuading his movement to accept the Egyptian-brokered cease-fire, or tahdiyah (calm), that was reached in Cairo last year among representatives of various Palestinian factions."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1138622520041&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Hamas has kept to the cease fire begun last year. Haniyeh seems to be taken with the UN Resolution 242 and the 1967 borders forming two states. Is Israel willing to agree? If so the peace desired by the people of both nations is possible. Unfortunately there are fanatics on both sides and it might not take much to get people seeing red. One thing that does bother me is that many in the western world dont seem to realize that Hamas is not the only side with fanatics that will keep the war going forever or until they own all of Palestine. Israel sure has a bunch willing to wage war and unwilling to cede land. But that's how Rabin was killed with many Rabbis calling for his assassination, quoting scripture to prove it was a duty to kill such a man and rejoicing when it happened. If peaceseekers on both sides can rein in their extreme militants who knows what could be accomplished? There's a grain of hope that imo was not there before.
0 Replies
 
 

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