So what if Iran has the bomb?

OCCOM BILL wrote:

More foolishness. GDP is the standard measuring stick for economic power and the U.S. has a $13,000,000,000,000 GDP. No other country even comes close. Economically speaking; the State of California dwarfs the GDP of the vast majority. Your contention that the U.S. is no longer a superpower is, put simply, ridiculous.

Foolishness?? Really? Here's a reality burger for you:

Calif. is 7th down from 5th. China will soon overtake Britain and France leaving only Germany, Japan, and the US. As far as your $13 trillion GDP try $12 billion. Look it up, since I can't quote other websites. Try Bureau of Economic Analysis and Bureau of the Public Debt. To date, the US has a trade deficit of 725.8 BILLION owed to the rest of the planet (Canada is owed $54 Billion; Mexico is owed $40 Bill). Think we'll ever get it? Of the 4.3% increase this year in the US, 3% was the result of military spending. In other words, your tax dollars hard at work. Add to the 725.8 billion and the national debt sitting at $8.24 TRILLION (the US owes every man woman and child in the US $27,517.00). Do the math.

The only thing 'super' you have is debt, your egos, and a really dangerous Administration.

You are somewhere around 9 TRILLION in debt.

And you think I want to live there? Why on earth would you think that?

That is a common misconception with you yanks. You think the rest of the world is just dying to get into your country. I know lots of Yanks who are quite desparate to come to Canada.

No thank you. I believe I'll retain my citizenship in Canada. I like our orientation to the world. And I like our socialized medical system, which most of the planet has except the US.

Go figure. :wink:

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pachelbel wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
More foolishness. GDP is the standard measuring stick for economic power and the U.S. has a $13,000,000,000,000 GDP. No other country even comes close. Economically speaking; the State of California dwarfs the GDP of the vast majority. Your contention that the U.S. is no longer a superpower is, put simply, ridiculous.

Foolishness?? Really? Here's a reality burger for you:

Calif. is 7th down from 5th. China will soon overtake Britain and France leaving only Germany, Japan, and the US. As far as your $13 trillion GDP try $12 billion. Look it up, since I can't quote other websites. Try Bureau of Economic Analysis and Bureau of the Public Debt. To date, the US has a trade deficit of 725.8 BILLION owed to the rest of the planet (Canada is owed $54 Billion; Mexico is owed $40 Bill). Think we'll ever get it? Of the 4.3% increase this year in the US, 3% was the result of military spending. In other words, your tax dollars hard at work. Add to the 725.8 billion and the national debt sitting at $8.24 TRILLION (the US owes every man woman and child in the US $27,517.00). Do the math.

Hard to follow your argument here. I believe OCCAM's statements above were entirely correct, and that the gentlest criticism of your reply is that it is beside the point OCCAM made. California alone is one of the world's largest economies, exactly as OCCAM said.

Moreover there is something mysterious about America's foreign debt. We make more on our investments abroad than we pay to service our debt. by a wide margin. This has caused a number of serious economists to wonder about uncounted U.S. investments in an otherwise inexplicable net cash inflow.

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And you think I want to live there? Why on earth would you think that?

No thank you. I believe I'll retain my citizenship in Canada. I like our orientation to the world. And I like our socialized medical system, which most of the planet has except the US.

It will take some time, but I expect i will recover from my present grief over this discovery.

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pachelbel wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
More foolishness. GDP is the standard measuring stick for economic power and the U.S. has a $13,000,000,000,000 GDP. No other country even comes close. Economically speaking; the State of California dwarfs the GDP of the vast majority. Your contention that the U.S. is no longer a superpower is, put simply, ridiculous.

Foolishness?? Really? Here's a reality burger for you:

Calif. is 7th down from 5th. China will soon overtake Britain and France leaving only Germany, Japan, and the US. As far as your $13 trillion GDP try $12 billion. Look it up, since I can't quote other websites. Try Bureau of Economic Analysis and Bureau of the Public Debt. To date, the US has a trade deficit of 725.8 BILLION owed to the rest of the planet (Canada is owed $54 Billion; Mexico is owed $40 Bill). Think we'll ever get it? Of the 4.3% increase this year in the US, 3% was the result of military spending. In other words, your tax dollars hard at work. Add to the 725.8 billion and the national debt sitting at $8.24 TRILLION (the US owes every man woman and child in the US $27,517.00). Do the math.

Hard to follow your argument here. I believe OCCAM's statements above were entirely correct, and that the gentlest criticism of your reply is that it is beside the point OCCAM made. California alone is one of the world's largest economies, exactly as OCCAM said.

Moreover there is something mysterious about America's foreign debt. We make more on our investments abroad than we pay to service our debt. by a wide margin. This has caused a number of serious economists to wonder about uncounted U.S. investments in an otherwise inexplicable net cash inflow.

Quote:

And you think I want to live there? Why on earth would you think that?

No thank you. I believe I'll retain my citizenship in Canada. I like our orientation to the world. And I like our socialized medical system, which most of the planet has except the US.

It will take some time, but I expect i will recover from my present grief over this discovery.

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Suggest you read "The Economist" -the issue I took these figures from is Dec. 05. They have a website as well.

Might unravel the 'mysterious American foreign debt' that you possibly don't hear about on your so-called free speech corporate owned television stations.

BTW, California is in the RED, in case you haven't heard. Thanks to the Governator.

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The "Governator' inherited the problems in California. If you had a clue what you were talking about, you'd realize that's why there is a Governator. Interestingly, the State still sits higher on the GDP list than your beloved Country. Now before you go screaming "that's not fair!... it's a population skewed figure". I'll remind (or more likely inform) you that the United States' Per Capita GDP is second only to Luxembourg's. Next you'll likely scream growth, right? Ill advised as well; since your beloved Country's GDP - real growth rate(%) was a paltry 2.4% compared to the United State's relatively stable 4.4%.
Interesting to note, that Canada did manage to match the European Union's collective average at 2.4% though, isn't it? Of course; they were dragged down by France's 2.1%, Germany's 1.7%, Italy's 1.3% and the Netherlands stagnant 1.2%. I guess National Health Care isn't the only thing Canada has in common with some of their European Idols, eh? :wink:

The United States' enormous dept and trade deficits are hardly new. Do a little research and you'll see she's continued to thrive despite these very real problems. Your focus on negatives only is never going to paint you a clear picture... and most certainly isn't going to support your outrageous claims. It requires the entire membership of the European Union to come close to matching the United States' enormous GDP (that's the only place you could have gotten your VERY misleading figure of $12 trillion, right? Rolling Eyes

). Like it or not: Not only does the United States remain a superpower... but they are the world's only superpower in both military and economic might.

Got that?

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Got the latest 'Economist'?

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Also, whether you think the US is on the rise or decline isn't what this thread is about. A decline doesn't happen overnight. Remember Rome and England? And empires before them?

It's about whether it matters if Iran has the bomb.
I think it's far more dangerous that Israel has the bomb. And they're terrorists - there is no other word for them.

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Governator is keeping Calif afloat by refinancing, just like all the poor fools who don't have saving accounts, just like America at large. The reason Calif went down was because Rep Pete Wilson, (then Gov.) pushed through his insane privitisation, deregularization of utilities, which allowed the boys from Texas, Enron included, to gouge the Calif consumer. The Bush tax rebates barely paid for the utility bills, thus a major tax relief turned into a boon for Texas, and bankruptcy for Calif, who voted against Bush, BTW.

Simple minds, looking for simple solutions wasted millions on a recall vote that solved nothing. Governator is failing badly, because the problem persists, as it does across the nation.

Here's some new math: 5% of the world's population (US) cannot consume 30% of the world's resources.

America is a paper tiger.

'.....Empire is an extension of the nationalism of Washington's far flung system, which is suited for being influential everywhere, but is almost powerless to manage regional situations on a longer term, institutionalized basis. You have 725 military installations all over the world'. from the book 'Collapse of Globalism and the Reinvention of the World', by Saul. Paper tiger.

Your citizens cannot afford medical care, unless they are wealthy.

BTW ---this is the largest debt that the US has ever incurred. But I'm not going to waste my time convincing you. You're brain has been washed.

Pride before a fall........

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pachelbel wrote:

.... But I'm not going to waste my time convincing you. You're brain has been washed.

Pride before a fall........

And yet you appear to expend a great deal of energy in these overwrought, and generally monotonous, rants

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So, the plan is to say something indefensibly stupid, get boxed in a corner, abandon it and say something else indefensibly stupid, get boxed in a corner, abandon it and try another tack without ever conceding your absurd positions. Then accuse your opponent of being brainwashed and go about your merry way...
Okay, bye.

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If you aren't going to check out the PROOF by looking at the websites for Bureau of Economic Analysis and Bureau of Public Debt then I can't help you. It's a simple google search. I would give you the websites but apparently able2know won't allow it.

Have a great, delusional evening, eh?

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So, back to the actual thread, concerning Iran having or not having WMD's, not about how much debt America has. An easy google search will tell you that. (It equals approx $27,000 for every man woman and child in the US). As for Iran------again,

Iran, despite its problems, is not without the means to retaliate, whether attacked by Israel or the U.S. One thing the Iranians might do is wreck the oil facilities in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, as well as closing the valves on their own oil. This would throw the world oil market into chaos, and the world economy would quickly follow.

Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are far too close to the oil industry to risk that kind of worldwide economic train wreck.

Presumably, we didn't want Israel to have the bomb, but the Israelis built them anyway. Ditto Pakistan, India and North Korea. In the end, despite the hot rhetoric, if the Iranians want a bomb, they will probably end up building it. That might cause the Israelis to lose a little sleep - though not much, as they have 200 nuclear weapons - but it shouldn't bother us in the least.

The Iranians are just as sensible and levelheaded as anyone else. Don't buy the propaganda that they are all a bunch of crazies. They've been around a lot longer than we have. I would trust them with nuclear weapons as much as - perhaps even a hair more than - I trust Bush. Americans must stop allowing politicians and propagandists to scare them into reckless behavior.
C.Reese 2006

Now, that makes so much sense it'll just go right over the American's heads. Smile

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pachelbel wrote:

So, back to the actual thread, concerning Iran having or not having WMD's, not about how much debt America has. An easy google search will tell you that. (It equals approx $27,000 for every man woman and child in the US). As for Iran------again,

Iran, despite its problems, is not without the means to retaliate, whether attacked by Israel or the U.S. One thing the Iranians might do is wreck the oil facilities in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, as well as closing the valves on their own oil. This would throw the world oil market into chaos, and the world economy would quickly follow.

Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are far too close to the oil industry to risk that kind of worldwide economic train wreck.

Presumably, we didn't want Israel to have the bomb, but the Israelis built them anyway. Ditto Pakistan, India and North Korea. In the end, despite the hot rhetoric, if the Iranians want a bomb, they will probably end up building it. That might cause the Israelis to lose a little sleep - though not much, as they have 200 nuclear weapons - but it shouldn't bother us in the least.

The Iranians are just as sensible and levelheaded as anyone else. Don't buy the propaganda that they are all a bunch of crazies. They've been around a lot longer than we have. I would trust them with nuclear weapons as much as - perhaps even a hair more than - I trust Bush. Americans must stop allowing politicians and propagandists to scare them into reckless behavior.
C.Reese 2006

Now, that makes so much sense it'll just go right over the American's heads.

What is the relevancy of the Iranians having "been around a lot longer than we have?"

Africans have "been around a lot longer than we have." Does that mean we should not, in the least, be concerned if Congolese rebels obtained a nuclear weapon?

Iran has a president that advocates the utter destruction of another nation. Since that nation is Israel, perhpas you don't find this disturbing, but I don't believe there is a single nuclear nation on the face of the earth in which the head of state is calling for the destruction of one of its neighbors.

It certainly doesn't make any sense, on any level, that we should trust the Iranians with a nuclear weapon more than we trust the president of the United States. I suppose that line sounds cute to those who despise America and, more particularly, George Bush, but it is just nonsense.

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Since you won't read the article posted you'll have to get it piecemeal, Finn:

'In the first place, just the talk has kicked up the price of oil. In the second place, there is no proof that Iran really wants to develop nuclear weapons. So far, what the Iranians have done and propose to do are legal. They have a reasonable explanation for why they want to develop nuclear power. Oil is their biggest and most valuable export. The less they use for domestic purposes, the more they will have to export.

On the other hand, they are surrounded by nuclear powers - Israel, Russia, Pakistan, India and the U.S. (through its heavy presence in the Persian Gulf and Iraq). So maybe they do want to develop a nuclear bomb. Personally, I don't care if they do. Having lived most of my life with 30,000 nuclear warheads and the means to deliver them in the Soviet Union, I'm not going to worry about the Iranians having six or seven. '
****************
Personally, if I were Iranian, I'd probably want some form of protection from Israel, Russia, Pakistan, India and the US.

Wouldn't you? They aren't doing anything illegal and they have proven that.

Bush has made sure that there will be perpetual war. Good for the defense business, isn't it? By Bush's definition, I guess Canada is 'funding terrorists' as well, according to Ms. Rice. The US 'funded' the Taliban in the 1980's, doesn't that make them terrorists?

You say, "Iran has a president that advocates the utter destruction of another nation". Well, how about that! And what the he!! do you think Bush did in Iraq and now wants to do in Iran?

It doesn't make sense that any nation should have WMD's, but America seems to think it's the only country that should be allowed. Oh, them and Israel, of course. Who aren't terrorists at all. Right.

I didn't write the article, so cannot say for sure why Mr. Reese said 'they've been around a lot longer than we have'. Other than the fact that 4,000 years of government compared to the US' measly 400 years ought to count for something.

America is arrogant and ignorant of any culture other than their own, which isn't a culture by any stretch of the imagination unless you count pop culture.

The whole issue is about who controls the oil. You know it and I know it, so let's just cut the baloney. America could give a sh** less about Iran's 5 or 6 nuclear warheads - but they do care very much about Iran and the petro vs the euro dollar. If it goes euro America loses Big Time. Can't have that. Must make up another war.

I hear they need democracy in America - I mean, Iran........ Smile

so, I guess they are next on America's hit list.

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Quote:

Iran has a president that advocates the utter destruction of another nation. Since that nation is Israel, perhpas you don't find this disturbing, but I don't believe there is a single nuclear nation on the face of the earth in which the head of state is calling for the destruction of one of its neighbors.

Perhaps it would help if you understood the Iranian government a little better.

Quote:

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As for the real reason we want to topple the Iranian governmet; think oil, euros and dollars.

We didn't attack Iraq because of WMD's. Bush has stated that he would have attacked Iraq even if it didn't have WMD's. The sin Iraq committed was to sell its oil for euros.

On March 20 Iran is going to open its oil bourse. Oil will be sold in euro's.

WMD's is to Iraq as the nuclear bomb is to Iran. It's something to feed the ignorant public's fear and to get support for war.

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However, the biggest change has to come next month. On March 20, 2006, the Iranians want to start an oil bourse in Teheran, with prices in euros.
This can have big effects on the exchange rate between dollars and euros. If the oil price in euros gets lower than the oil price in dollars, there will be a rush on euros. And if it the oil price in euros gets higher than its price in dollars, there will be a rush on dollars.
So, basically Teheran gets an influence in the exchange rate of the currencies, which means risks for both the US and Europe. Today Teheran is pressured and threatened by both. Fluctuations in exchange rates might also bother China's exports to the US.

http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=252

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It's always about the almight dollar isn't it.

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It's always about the almighty dollar isn't it.

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Al Qaeda wants to defeat us the same way it defeated the Soviet Union; not on the battlefield but to bleed us dry economically. And they're succeeding.

Iran is attacking us economically from a different direction, through the oil bourse.

If we take the bait and attack Iran we will face a Shiite insurgency in Iraq as well as fighting the Iranians.

I don't know what Bush has in mind but it wouldn't surprise me if he went nuclear. We talk about Ahmadinejad being a loose nut and wanting to nuke Israel but I think we have more to fear from Bush than Ahmadinejad.

Nothing to do but sit back and watch what happens in March.

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So what if Iran has the bomb?

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