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So what if Iran has the bomb?

 
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 07:29 pm
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 09:36 pm
Re: So what if Iran has the bomb?
pachelbel wrote:
In the second place, there is no proof that Iran really wants to develop nuclear weapons.


Other than the fact that they were developing technology that could build them, and keeping it secret from the world.



pachelbel wrote:
They have a reasonable explanation for why they want to develop nuclear power. Oil is their biggest and most valuable export. The less they use for domestic purposes, the more they will have to export.


I don't buy it.

They don't use that much electricity, and nuclear power isn't exactly free.



pachelbel wrote:
I'm not one of those people who think the world will end with a nuclear explosion. There have been a lot of nuclear explosions. We dropped two on Japan, and all the nuclear powers tested their bombs in the atmosphere as well as underground. Despite the urban legends about plutonium, we are all still here. A nuclear weapon is, after all, a bomb, and like all bombs there is a limit to its radius of destruction.


Some of us, while out of danger of Iran's nukes, are friends to Israel, and hope to prevent Israel from being nuked.



pachelbel wrote:
Moreover, they don't have the planes capable of taking enough ordnance to do sufficient damage to fortified, underground installations that are widely dispersed.


That is where the author is completely wrong.

We've given Israel the necessary firepower to take out any Iranian facility that can be identified.



pachelbel wrote:
Iran, despite its problems, is not without the means to retaliate, whether attacked by Israel or the U.S. One thing the Iranians might do is wreck the oil facilities in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, as well as closing the valves on their own oil. This would throw the world oil market into chaos, and the world economy would quickly follow.


Iran would respond by starting a war with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?



pachelbel wrote:
The Iranians are just as sensible and levelheaded as anyone else. Don't buy the propaganda that they are all a bunch of crazies.


The problem isn't the Iranian people. The problem is the deranged lunatic who is in charge of Iran.



pachelbel wrote:
There is some sense to what he says here, I believe


I disagree.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 09:38 pm
pachelbel wrote:
Unstable would include, I presume, Israel?


Nope.



pachelbel wrote:
So, why are they allowed to have WMD's?


Because they never signed the NPT.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 09:40 pm
pachelbel wrote:
Because Iran is not an unstable country. It is a democratically elected government.


A democracy where the religious fanatics prevent the moderates from running for office?

That's no democracy.



pachelbel wrote:
'President George W. Bush is about to have his bubble of delusions pricked. We are not the world's only superpower,


Yes we are.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 09:49 pm
pachelbel wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Israel should not NEED to ask why the hostility is aimed their way. They have dealt quite effectively with it thus far and will continue to do so going forward.



Yes, with the monetary help from the U.S. which puts the U.S. in harm's way from Arabs; what 9/11 was all about.


9/11 was about a lot more than Israel.

Osama also wants to destroy all the moderate governments of Muslim countries, as well as destroy Israel.



pachelbel wrote:
That the Jews have been in Arab country for the last 100 years means what, exactly? The Arabs were there centuries before.


Nope. The Jews were there first.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 10:02 pm
Re: So what if Iran has the bomb?
oralloy wrote:
pachelbel wrote:
Moreover, they don't have the planes capable of taking enough ordnance to do sufficient damage to fortified, underground installations that are widely dispersed.


That is where the author is completely wrong.

We've given Israel the necessary firepower to take out any Iranian facility that can be identified.


A couple articles of note from the last couple years:


Quote:
U.S. to sell 5,000 smart bombs to Israel
Deal comes amid concerns about Iran's nuclear aspirations

Associated Press
Updated: 10:17 p.m. ET Sept. 21, 2004

JERUSALEM - The United States will sell Israel nearly 5,000 smart bombs in one of the largest weapons deals between the allies in years, Israeli military officials said Tuesday.

The deal will expand Israel's existing supply of the weapons, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Israel's announcement came after the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible military sale to Israel worth as much as $319 million.

The agency said in a June 1 press release that the sale "will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been and continues to be an important force for political stability and economic progress in the Middle East."

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported on Tuesday that funding for the sale will come from U.S. military aid to Israel.

Disclosure of the deal comes amid escalating Israeli worries over Iran's nuclear development program.

Israel and a number of Western countries fear that Iran is trying to produce nuclear weapons. Iran says its nuclear program is for generating electricity.

Defying a key demand set by 35 nations, Iran announced Tuesday that it has started converting raw uranium into the gas needed for enrichment, a process that can be used to make nuclear weapons.

The Israeli military officials would not say whether the bombs might be intended for use against Iran. But they ruled out the possibility that they could be used against Palestinian targets.

Israel drew heavy criticism after a one-ton smart bomb meant for a senior Palestinian militant also killed 15 civilians in an attack in the Gaza Strip in July 2002.

The bombs Israel is acquiring include airborne versions, guidance units, training bombs and detonators. They are guided by an existing Israeli satellite used by the military.

As part of the deal, Israel will receive 3,000 one-ton bombs, 1,000 half-ton bombs and 500 quarter-ton bombs, the military officials said.

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6067629



Quote:
U.S. OKs sale of bunker busters to Israel
Move seen as warning to Iran on nuclear ambitions

Associated Press
Updated: 7:03 p.m. ET April 27, 2005

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has authorized the sale of as many as 100 large bunker-buster bombs to Israel. One expert said the move should serve as a warning to Iranians with nuclear ambitions.

The proposed deal, worth as much as $30 million, would provide Israel with the capability to drop 5,000-pound bombs that can penetrate bunkers and other buried structures. The GBU-28 bombs can be dropped from Israel's American-made F-15 fighters.

"This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for economic progress in the Middle East," the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a press release.

Although the proposed sale will give Israel a significant new capability to attack underground targets, the agency said the move would not upset the balance of military power in the region.

"The Israelis want to be able to attack Iran's underground nuclear weapons facilities," said John Pike, a military expert at Globalsecurity.org in Alexandria, Va.

The proposed sale should give notice to Tehran that the United States will not allow Iran to become a nuclear power if diplomatic efforts fail, he said.

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7658949
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 10:14 pm
Oh, please. There were Arabs, Byzantines, Greeks, Jews: not any one group. Jews were kicked out by the Romans from what is today Israel in 70 AD. It's called the Diaspora. They were dispersed all over until the Balfour Declaration (see article 1st page), in which 700,000 Arabs were supposed to live in harmony with Jews.

As for your other comment:
'A democracy where the religious fanatics prevent the moderates from running for office?

That's no democracy'

Are you talking about the US here?

I still think it's very interesting that the Christians want to protect a country, Israel, in view of the fact that they don't like Jesus. What are they afraid of?

Also, the US is not the big superpower anymore. You'll have to get used to that fact. Maybe you'll need some therapy to help you get over the visions of grandeur that seem rife in America? China and India will be the big superpowers in teh 21st century. America is spending far too much and producing far too little to be considered a big player anymore. They are a liability, not an asset.

As for the 'deranged lunatic' you claim is in charge in Iran, what do you call the idiot running the White House?

Didn't think you read the above article, 'The Real Reason Iran Is The next Target, but you should before you post again. I'd like to hear your take on it. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jan, 2006 11:54 pm
I read your article when a poster I respect furnished a link earlier. There's some merit there, and it is most certainly a factor, but not the deciding factor in Iraq or Iran. The author let his passion pull him a little too far from reason, not unlike what you are doing here.

The United States isn't even a superpower anymore? Rolling Eyes By what measure?... Reproduction? Not only do we have by far the most capable military and nuclear arsenal; we also still have nearly half of the wealth on earth. What measure do you use? The United States isn't only a superpower… it is the world's only superpower. That's not a delusion of grandeur; it is an easily substantiated fact. I'd recommend the CIA World Fact Book for all manner of fact checking, be it financial, military, population, birth rates, death rates, you name it.

Not afraid of nukes either, eh? Some of our weaker H-bombs are only about one thousand times more powerful than what was delivered to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Seems like something that could do a lot of damage, that.

And what precisely do you think the Israelis should do after living in Israel all these years? Leave? I could understand if you were merely asking them to return to 1967 borders or something, but you seem to think perpetual hatred of them for a land grab they didn't themselves facilitate is AOK. That sounds just to you? Tell me; do you still hate the Germans? How about the Japanese? Ugly, unfair things happen in wars (and in peace) but that doesn't mean civilized people can't get over it… especially after a couple generations go by. Now I'm not anti-Palestinian or anti-Arab, at all, but I do think the Israelis have a right to exist.

Israel: both you and the author you quoted severely underestimate their military prowess. If we left the Israeli/Palestine problem to work itself out, Israel would likely solve it very swiftly, in ways none of us would approve of. You would do to do some fact-checking on military muscle and learn where the military power is concentrated before commenting on it.

China: you think our dept to China puts them in the command seat sanction-wise? Really? While do stand to lose our cheap crap at Wal-mart and whatnot, they'd stand to lose their entire economy. China, contrary to popular opinion in the "America sucks club" is NOT a member of the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) club... but they are close enough. There will be no war with China (we'd suffer too much and they'd be obliterated).

Iran: Ahmedinejad speaks like an unstable madman who, even as the leader of the land, has no more sense than to come right out and say Israel should be wiped from the map. So what if he builds the tools that could do just that? This strikes me as pretty naive. There are plenty of good things to say about Iran and if you look around A2K you'll find folks who do a fine job of defending them. You won't find too many critical thinkers defending the words of Ahmedinejad or the man himself because he just isn't worthy. I'd like to see him in control of an A-Bomb just about as much as I'd like to see Kim Jong Il in control of an H-bomb (again, that's 1,000 times more boom). Drawing cartoonish parallels to Bush are a sorry substitute for an argument. Whatever you may feel about Bush, I assure you, has no logical bearing on an assessment of Ahmedinejad... and the case against Ahmedinejad is a very reasonable consideration in deciding whether it matters if Iran gets a nuke. If you can't recognize that...
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2006 12:13 am
pachelbel wrote:
Oh, please. There were Arabs, Byzantines, Greeks, Jews: not any one group. Jews were kicked out by the Romans from what is today Israel in 70 AD. It's called the Diaspora. They were dispersed all over until the Balfour Declaration (see article 1st page), in which 700,000 Arabs were supposed to live in harmony with Jews.


That doesn't invalidate their right to return and reclaim their homeland.



pachelbel wrote:
As for your other comment:
'A democracy where the religious fanatics prevent the moderates from running for office?

That's no democracy'

Are you talking about the US here?


Falsely accusing the US and/or Israel of Iran's problems doesn't seem to achieve anything worthwhile.



pachelbel wrote:
I still think it's very interesting that the Christians want to protect a country, Israel, in view of the fact that they don't like Jesus. What are they afraid of?


I'm a Xian, and I want to protect Israel because they are our friend and ally.



pachelbel wrote:
Also, the US is not the big superpower anymore. You'll have to get used to that fact. Maybe you'll need some therapy to help you get over the visions of grandeur that seem rife in America?


We won't have to get used to it, because it isn't a fact.

The Romans also had people bitterly predicting their imminent demise for centuries. They didn't pay it much heed, and went on being a superpower. We shall do the same.



pachelbel wrote:
China and India will be the big superpowers in teh 21st century. America is spending far too much and producing far too little to be considered a big player anymore. They are a liability, not an asset.


China and India may approach us economically. But it is unlikely that they will approach us militarily.



pachelbel wrote:
As for the 'deranged lunatic' you claim is in charge in Iran, what do you call the idiot running the White House?


I don't call him either a deranged lunatic or an idiot.



pachelbel wrote:
Didn't think you read the above article, 'The Real Reason Iran Is The next Target, but you should before you post again. I'd like to hear your take on it. Thank you.


It doesn't bother me if people trade for oil in Euros. I don't think it bothers the US government either.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jan, 2006 10:44 pm
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2006 01:11 pm
pachelbel wrote:
Yes, it does bother the US, if you'd bother to read the article


I realize the article makes this claim.

I don't consider the claim to be true just because they claim it. And I find the claim to be implausible at best.



pachelbel wrote:
---------so, there you have the valid reason why the US is at war with Iraq and planning next to try a similar fiasco against Iran.


No, all I have there is a highly questionable claim as to what the reason is.



pachelbel wrote:
Maybe you'll take the time to read the article in its entirety. Maybe not. Whatever.


I wouldn't have commented about the article if I hadn't read it in its entirety.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2006 03:02 pm
pachelbel wrote:
---------so, there you have the valid reason why the US is at war with Iraq and planning next to try a similar fiasco against Iran. It's all about euro dollars vs american dollars. And the US wants the biggest share of the market, as usual. Maybe you'll take the time to read the article in its entirety. Maybe not. Whatever.
Bush has already stated that he's content to let Iran have nuclear power under the Russian plan of them supplying the fuel and removing the spent fuel under the full supervision of the IAEA. If you consider the implications of that concession, you'll be forced to see the hollowness in the argument put forth in your article. Idea Relying on a single opinion is a recipe for erroneous conclusions.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2006 07:30 pm
Relying on anything Bush says/states is 'a recipe for erroneous conclusions'. Bush is a confirmed liar.

Rarely hear him say anything that remotely makes sense. Is he drunk, as has been surmised, or just stupid?

The facts speak for themselves. Do a google search. There's a lot on the net about the euro vs the dollar. What it's about, bud.

Believe or not, makes no difference to me!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2006 10:36 pm
That's just silly. Unless Bush asks congress for war powers in Iran, he doesn't have them. He won't get them by stating that he's willing to go along with a plan to avoid military action. Said willingness totally discounts the level of importance you're putting on the Euro/Dollar equation. Get over it.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2006 11:11 pm
Again, quoted from globalresearch article;

In 2005-2006, The Tehran government has a developed a plan to begin competing with New York's NYMEX and London's IPE with respect to international oil trades - using a euro-denominated international oil-trading mechanism. This means that without some form of US intervention, the euro is going to establish a firm foothold in the international oil trade. Given U.S. debt levels and the stated neoconservative project for U.S. global domination, Tehran's objective constitutes an obvious encroachment on U.S. dollar supremacy in the international oil market

"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes...known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."


NOW, which part don't you understand? Get over what? It is you, in America, that must get over the idea that America will control the oil market. Too many factors pointing against you. Read the article, pg 2 or 3.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jan, 2006 11:48 pm
pachelbel wrote:
NOW, which part don't you understand? Get over what? It is you, in America, that must get over the idea that America will control the oil market. Too many factors pointing against you. Read the article, pg 2 or 3.
What part don't I understand? Laughing I understand the article, in it's entirety, just fine... and even agree there's a dilemma over the Euro/Dollar Equation. However; if Bush isn't pressing for war in Iran, on the condition that Russians are going to fuel their reactor under IAEA supervision (which would, of course, have no bearing on the currency Iran chooses to use) your argument is mute. Quoting a faulty theory, over and over again will not add legitimacy to it.

Iran is in a position to have everything they want if they accept the offer. The only reason I could see them turning it down; is if they are not being honest about their intentions in the first place. Think it through. Your hatred of Bush, whether it be rational or not, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not this diplomatic solution is to be utilized, so it supports your argument not at all. Unless Bush does a 180 and retracts his endorsement of the plan; your beloved article's conclusions are patently false. Get it? If you can't understand simple English, I will have to consider your opinions accordingly.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 12:14 am
Jeez, now I'm not so sure where the Milky Way resides.

On another thread pachelbel's use of "we" tied him to Canada, but in this one it ties him to the US.

An indentity crisis for poor pachy?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jan, 2006 12:33 am
Pachelbel's assertions are so ridiculous I have to wonder why I'm taking the time to comment upon them.

Ridiculous assertion #1: The government in Iran was democratically elected.

Only a moron or someone ideologically motivated would claim this to be true. By definition, if the State refuses to allow certain parties to run for office, ensuing elections are not democratic.

Ridiculous assertion #2: The US is not a superpower.

Not only is it a superpower, it is the only superpower. The only nation on earth that has any potential to rival the US is China, and superpower status for China is hardly a foregone conclusion.

The only way for China to gain a military advantage over the US is for the US to cease to concern itself with defense for two or three decades into the future.

China's problems with corruption, disparate levels of wealth, and environmental degradation are exponentially greater than that of the US.

Ridiculous assertion #3: Israel doesn't have a premier historical claim to the Holy Lands.

There are two parties struggling for dominion in the Holy Lands: Israelis and Palestinians.
Any reasonable consideration of history will conclude that to the extent historical claims have a meaning, the Israelis trump the Palestinians.

There are more ridiculous assertions, but these three will do to cast the proper light on pachelbel's claims.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2006 10:35 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Pachelbel's assertions are so ridiculous I have to wonder why I'm taking the time to comment upon them.

Ridiculous? You better start reading history.


Ridiculous assertion #1: The government in Iran was democratically elected.

They were democratically elected. Prove otherwise.


Only a moron or someone ideologically motivated would claim this to be true. By definition, if the State refuses to allow certain parties to run for office, ensuing elections are not democratic.

By your definiton, the same is true with the U.S. as defacto, Communist, Socialist, Nazi, much less Green or Independent parties (Natural Law) have a snowballs chance in hell to ever gain power under the regime of the A&B Teams called the Republican and Democratic Parties.


Ridiculous assertion #2: The US is not a superpower.

Not only is it a superpower, it is the only superpower. The only nation on earth that has any potential to rival the US is China, and superpower status for China is hardly a foregone conclusion.

The only way for China to gain a military advantage over the US is for the US to cease to concern itself with defense for two or three decades into the future.

China's problems with corruption, disparate levels of wealth, and environmental degradation are exponentially greater than that of the US.

We are not talking about military strength. We are talking economics. The US is in the same position as Rome or Spain or England before their fall. You cannot sustain a military on a shrinking tax base with an out of control trade deficit.

Ridiculous assertion #3: Israel doesn't have a premier historical claim to the Holy Lands.

There are two parties struggling for dominion in the Holy Lands: Israelis and Palestinians.
Any reasonable consideration of history will conclude that to the extent historical claims have a meaning, the Israelis trump the Palestinians.

If you mean that Israel's claim is based on God asking Moses to carry out genocide on the indigenous people of the land of milk and honey, as your rationale for their 'right' to the Holy Land, then I suppose you agree that Hitler was correct in his genocide to make Lebensraum for Germany.

The Arabs, over 700,000, were in Israel before the Jews, until the Balfour Declaration and the Brits stabbed them in the back and gave it to the Jews. Look it up. It's really easy on a google search.

There are more ridiculous assertions, but these three will do to cast the proper light on pachelbel's claims.


Oh really? Or is it that you could not find answers to properly debate, finn?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Feb, 2006 10:41 pm
pachelbel wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Pachelbel's assertions are so ridiculous I have to wonder why I'm taking the time to comment upon them.

Ridiculous? You better start reading history.[/b]

And then I might find them less ridiculous how?

[/b][/color]
Ridiculous assertion #1: The government in Iran was democratically elected.

They were democratically elected. Prove otherwise.

Opposition parties were not permitted to contest. Do you really need more proof or do you argue against this assertion?


Only a moron or someone ideologically motivated would claim this to be true. By definition, if the State refuses to allow certain parties to run for office, ensuing elections are not democratic.

By your definiton, the same is true with the U.S. as defacto, Communist, Socialist, Nazi, much less Green or Independent parties (Natural Law) have a snowballs chance in hell to ever gain power under the regime of the A&B Teams called the Republican and Democratic Parties.

Hardly.The Party in Favor of Ceding Soverignty to the Universal Overlords has a snow balls chance in hell of winning but it can run in America. There is a huge difference (which I am frankly surprised you refuse to acknowledge) between parties having little chance to win an election and parties having no chance because the powers that be refuse them entry to the process.


Ridiculous assertion #2: The US is not a superpower.

Not only is it a superpower, it is the only superpower. The only nation on earth that has any potential to rival the US is China, and superpower status for China is hardly a foregone conclusion.

The only way for China to gain a military advantage over the US is for the US to cease to concern itself with defense for two or three decades into the future.

China's problems with corruption, disparate levels of wealth, and environmental degradation are exponentially greater than that of the US.

We are not talking about military strength. We are talking economics. The US is in the same position as Rome or Spain or England before their fall. You cannot sustain a military on a shrinking tax base with an out of control trade deficit.

When we talk about international superpowers, only an idiot is not talking about military power. As far as economic power goes, it is a long way between the American fall and the Chinese rise. You were probably someone who argued that Japan was eating America's economic lunch in the early 90's.

China has an enormous potentiallity for two reasons, one readily recognized, the other less politically correct:

1) Sheer size of population
2) The money making roots of the Chinese psyche.


It is absurd to argue that China will march through all of the problems of 20th century powers, like a hot knife through butter, to dominance in the 21st century.

China has enormous challanges (well beyond those of the US) when it comes to ecological degradation, enormous gaps between rich and poor, and the corruption of the power elite.



Ridiculous assertion #3: Israel doesn't have a premier historical claim to the Holy Lands.

There are two parties struggling for dominion in the Holy Lands: Israelis and Palestinians.
Any reasonable consideration of history will conclude that to the extent historical claims have a meaning, the Israelis trump the Palestinians.

If you mean that Israel's claim is based on God asking Moses to carry out genocide on the indigenous people of the land of milk and honey, as your rationale for their 'right' to the Holy Land, then I suppose you agree that Hitler was correct in his genocide to make Lebensraum for Germany.

No, I mean those peoples with whom modern day Israelis feel they can draw a straight historical line, owned Palestine well before the Arabic also-rans came along.

The Temple Mount maybe the 3rd most holy site in Islam, but Jeruselem and the site of the Temple of Solomon is the the most holy site in Judaeism. The reason is that Palestine is the land of Jewish origin; it is not the land of Islamic origin.



The Arabs, over 700,000, were in Israel before the Jews, until the Balfour Declaration and the Brits stabbed them in the back and gave it to the Jews. Look it up. It's really easy on a google search.

There are more ridiculous assertions, but these three will do to cast the proper light on pachelbel's claims.


Oh really? Or is it that you could not find answers to properly debate, finn?


Bring it on pachy!
0 Replies
 
 

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