ali87 wrote:mesquite once again you make a flying statement hoping it would pass:
"there is NO surviving quran dating to Mohammad's time."
if you're gonna say something, atleast provide some reference, have some proof to back up ur claim. now i will refute your LIE AGAIN by providing the readers a link about the preservation of the Quran, its too long to copy everything, so ill just provide the link, it also has photos of the very first Quran:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm
This quote from your own reference supports exactly what I said.
"there is NO surviving quran dating to Mohammad's time."
Quote:Nor does he blindly accept that the earliest extant Qur'anic manuscripts, in Istanbul and Tashkent, were the ones distributed by [Uthman but leaves open the possibility that these MSS like 27 other ones from the first century Hijri listed on p. 316f. might be the first copies, from 49 A.H. at the earliest (p. 104).
ali87 wrote:now as for the source of the english translation of ibn ishaq's (scholar) writings, it is Alfred Guillaume (who himself was a christian). he was the main translator of ibn ishaq's writings in the west.
I have no idea what the religious beliefs of Alfred Guillaume were. Do you have some reference where he stated them?
ali87 wrote:i wonder what christians would think if a muslim translated a scholar's writings about the bible! (by the way did you know many scientists and scholars were executed by churchs orders in europe, for speaking against christianity?
As I said before, If you have a problem with his translation, why not provide a specific correction rather than generalizations. I provided specific page numbers from his book for my quotes of which I only supplied two and you objected to one. Does that mean that you are OK with the account of Umm Qirfa?
from Guillaume, op cit, page 665:
"....and Umm Qirfa Fatima was taken prisoner. She was a very old women, wife of Malik. Her daughter and Abdullah Masada were also taken. Zayd ordered Qays to kill Umm Qirfa and he killed her cruelly (Tabari, by putting a rope to her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two.)
If you really think the Guillaume translations are so bad, then why did you use them yourself? Looks very similar to the picking and choosing that many Christians also are partial to.
As for the rest of your tirade, Islam IS what muslims did and DO in the name of Islam, just the same as Christianity IS what Christians did and DO in the name of Christianity.
Some muslims would like to pretend that the Hadiths are insignificant, just a some Christians would like to do the same with the OLD Testament, but the fact remains that both are a big part of their respective religions.
So long as religious leaders continue to preach hate and self righteousness using the Bible, Koran, Torah, or any other ancient text from a more primitive time, humanity will continue to suffer.
The tone of your writing just helps to make my point.
NOW IM GOING TO TURN THE TABLE AROUND ON YOU:
Instant Death to Apostates (those who desert their religion) in the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament:
It is often believed that the Bible gives absolute religious freedom to everyone. Most of the Christians in the United States and the the West think that the freedom of choice and speech that they have comes originally from the Bible. Let's just see how accurate this myth really is.
Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
Also let us look at Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
This verse was sent to me by Yusif 65; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: 2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."
Also let us look at Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament) "20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
Also psychics must be put to death. Let us look at Leviticus 20:27 "And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them."
The above verses clearly show that the Bible doesn't tolerate apostates. Jesus did honor the Old Testament's laws and ordered his followers to follow the Old Testament until the day of Judgment:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
Christians always say as an excuse that an Old Testament law does not apply to them. According to Matthew 5:17-18, we clearly see that Jesus honored the Old Testament, and forced Christians to follow the unmodified laws of it that have not been replaced by newer ones in the New Testament. The Old Testament as we clearly see above orders the immediate killing of apostates/renegades. The New Testament as we also clearly see above, orders the death of the apostates/renegades. And according to Matthew 5:17-18 above, apostates/renegades in Christianity must be put to death simultaneously.
By the way, please visit: Christians are obligated to follow the Old Testament.
Also, during the middle centuries when the Church used to rule over everything, the minority Christians and the Christian Scientists were slaughtered and put to death by the majority ones just because the Priests and Ministers of the High Church decided to call as "heresies" or "apostates". The Bible does give clear authority to the Priests and Ministers to call someone an apostate:
"The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment. (1 Corinthians 2:15)"
Conclusion:
The Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament doesn't tolerate apostates, and it orders for them to be killed. The Bible does order men and women (spiritual leaders and religious people) to be judgmental, and to kill those who don't agree with them by stoning them to death.
The man-made myth about Bible being a "book of love" is clearly contradicted for being the biggest judgmental and punishing book.
