TRINITY: SATAN'S BIGGEST LIE

For some people a sequel is never as good as the original, I suppose.

Besides, I am pretty sure the masons and the jews, in conjunction with the aliens and cyborg-elvis, are responsible for just about everything wrong with the world.

According to the Christian missionaries:

Surely you and what you worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come.
-- Sura 21:98

The logic is clear, Jesus is not God [5:75], millions of Christians are worshiping Jesus today and even the Qur'an acknowledges this [5:119], therefore Jesus will be fuel for the Hell fire [21:98] together with the Christians. This clearly contradicts the verses on Jesus' special place near to Allah [Sura 3:45; 4:158 and others].

Rebuttal

What is logically clear is that the Christian missionaries have not shown any support for their statement that the verse 21:98 indeed refers to Jesus(P). The issues here are:

What does the verse 21:98 actually say?

Why should Jesus(P) go to hell-fire?

Grammatical Considerations & Tafsîr

Surely you and what you worship besides Allah are the firewood of hell; to it you shall come. [Qur'ân 21:98]

The word "mâ" translated as "what" in verse 21:98 is used to refer to things/objects and seldom would it refer to people. Otherwise, it would be "man" (i.e. who or whom). Thus Jesus is not referred to in that verse. This verse would rather refer to idols worshipped by the pagan Arabs who lived in the time of Prophet Muhammad. More details are available in the section Grammatical considerations & tafsîr.

Why Should Jesus Go To Hell-fire?

It is true that many Christians worship Jesus and that according to the Qur'ân [21:98] whoever worships any deity except God would be the firewood of hell. In this context, what will happen to Jesus? The Christian missionaries say rightfully that Jesus is highly esteemed in Islam:

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; [Qur'ân 3:45]

For the sake of debate, the question would be: What was the mischief committed by Jesus for which he would deserve hell? Did he order the Christians to worship him? We, the Muslims, believe he did not:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. [Qur'ân 5:116-117]

And God Almighty also says:

On no soul doth Allah place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. [...] [Qur'ân 2:286]

and

No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning). [Qur'ân 17:15]

So, as shown in verses 5:116-117, Jesus will be confronted with those who worship him. After he washes his hands from the Christian polytheism, each one will be accountable for his own deeds because the messenger (Prophet Muhammad) has warned the Christians against their error and they refused to follow him and the consequences of not heeding to the advice (see verse 17:15).

Grammatical Considerations & Tafsîr

Coming back to the original issue, verse 21:98 (saying that what is worshipped besides God will be the firewood of hell) refers to things/objects and not to the people for obvious grammatical reasons. Moreover, as discussed above Jesus is innocent from the Christian worship and thus he cannot be accountable for the Christian misguidance after his ascension to the Heaven. Of course, Jesus is honoured by Islam and there is no contradiction between this fact and the Christian misguidance from which he is totally innocent (according to the Qur'ân too).

Some missionaries go further with this argument by quoting Sîrah concerning the revelation of verse 21:98. We have cross-checked the quotation from as-Sîrah an-Nabawiyyah by Ibn Hishâm which says:


Ibn Ishâq said:

The Apostle of God sat one day, so I have heard, with al-Walîd Ibn al-Mughîrah in the mosque, and an-Nadr Ibn al-Harith came and sat with them in the assembly where some of Quraysh were. So the Apostle spoke but an-Nadr interrupted him. Then the Apostle spoke to him until he silenced him. Then he read to him and to the others: "Verily ye and what ye serve other than God is the fuel of hell. You will come to it. If these had been gods they would not have come to it, but all will be in it everlastingly. There is wailing and there they will not hear".

Ibn Ishâq said:

Then the Apostle of God left and Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ as-Sahmî came and sat down. al-Walîd said to him: "By God, an-Nadr could not stand up to the (grand)son of cAbdul-Muttalib just now and Muhammad alleged that we and what we worship among these deities of ours [mâ nacbudu min 'âlihatinâ hâdhihî] are fuel for hell". Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ said: "If I had found him I would have refuted him. Ask Muhammad, "Is everything which is worshipped besides God in hell with those who worship it?' We worship the angels; the Jews worship cUzayr; and the Christians worship Jesus the Son of Mary." Al-Walîd and those with him in the assembly wondered at the words of cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ and saw that he had argued convincingly. When the Apostle of God(P) heard of the speech of Ibn al-Zibicrâ, he said: "Everyone who appreciates being worshipped to the exclusion of God will be with those who worship him. They worship only devils and whom they have ordered to be worshipped." So God Almighty revealed concerning that "Those who have received kindness from us in the past will be removed far from it and will not hear its sound and they abide eternally in their heart's desire", i.e., Jesus Son of Mary and cUzayr and those rabbis and monks who have lived in obedience to God, whom the erring people worship as lords beside God. And He revealed concerning their assertion that they worship angels and that they are the daughters of God, "And they say the Merciful has chosen a son, (exalted be He above this); nay, they are but honored slaves, they do not speak before He speaks, and they carry out His commands", as far as the words, "and he of them who says, I am God as well as He, that one we shall repay with Hell. Thus do they repay the sinful ones." [1]

In the quotation above, the pagans of Makkah understood that verse 21:98 concerned them specifically as well as their idols (see how they stress: "what we worship among these deities of ours"- in Arabic: mâ nacbudu min 'âlihatinâ hâdhihi). No mention of deified humans was understood. However, the question of cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ - even if it was out of the real scope of the verse - came as a relief for them especially after Prophet Muhammad had silenced Ibn an-Nadr one of their best orators. When the Prophet heard of Abdullâh's objection, he brought an answer to his specific question, i.e., what about the humans that are worshipped? The answer was: if and only if their being worshipped pleased them, then they will meet the same fate as their worshippers - Hell. This saves Jesus, Mary, the Angels and whatever pious people who were later worshipped against their own consent.

Moreover, many Qur'ânic commentaries such as those of al-Tabarî, al-Qurtubî and Ibn Kathîr mention this quotation of Sîrah concerning the following passage of Sûrat al-Zukhruf:

When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamor thereat (in ridicule)! And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favor to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. [Qur'ân 43:57-61]

Very interestingly, al-Qurtubî had the following to say in his tafsîr, while commenting on verse 43:57 :



Ibn cAbbâs said:

This verse refers to the argument between Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ and the Prophet of God concerning Jesus. The one who held the example [in the verse] is cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ while he was still a pagan. This took place when Quraysh reported to him that Muhammad recites: "Verily ye and what ye serve other than God is the fuel of hell." [21:98]. He said: "If I had attended him, I would have replied to him." They asked him: "What would you say?" I would say: "The Christ is worshipped by the Christians and the Jews worship cUzayr. Are they among the firewood of hell?" Then Quraysh wondered at his words and saw that he had argued convincingly and this is the meaning of yasiddûn [raise a clamour in ridicule]. So, God revealed: "Surely (as for) those for whom the good has already gone forth from Us, they shall be kept far off from it;" [21:101]

If Ibn al-Zibicrâ had pondered on verse 21:98, he wouldn't have objected to it because it makes mention of "what ye serve" and not "whom you serve" because the verse speaks about the idols and other things, and not about Jesus nor the angels even if they are worshipped.[2]

Two things stand out from this quotation:

Firstly, the grammatical considerations that we made in the beginning of this article according to which only inanimate things are included in verse 21:98. Al-Qurtubî stands by this opinion when commenting on verse 43:57 as well as verse 21:98.



The scholars say that Jesus, cUzayr and the angels are not meant by verse 21:98 because "mâ" [i.e., "what"] refers to inanimate things and not to people. If the verse pointed to them, it would use "man" [i.e., "who" or "whom"] instead.[3]

As-Sâbûnî in Mukhtasar Tafsîr Ibn Kathîr points out this argument too in the explanation of verse 43:58



Regarding His divine words: "This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people" means: they say so for the sake of argument while they know that their argument is not applicable to this verse since it refers to things only [i.e., in the Arabic language "mâ" is used to refer to things and God Almighty used "mâ" and not "man"] and so it is in His divine speech "Verily ye and what ye serve other than God is the fuel of hell." Moreover, this verse was addressed at Quraysh who were used to worship idols and they did not worship Jesus so that he could be included here. Therefore, their answer is no more than a fake argument in which they do not believe themselves.[4]

Secondly, it is implied that cAbdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ, the one who opposed the Prophet about verse 21:98, became a Muslim. The reader may check entry number 4682 in al-Isâbah[5] by Ibn Hajar where we get the confirmation that Ibn al-Zibicrâ converted to Islam and praised the Prophet with his poetry. If he knew that there were a contradiction in the Qur'ân concerning Jesus and whether he would go to hell, would he believe in Muhammad and convert to Islam?

In conclusion, it can be said that there is no difference between the arguments of Abdullâh Ibn al-Zibicrâ when he was a pagan and the Christian missionaries of this day. The verse 21:98 does not refer to Jesus at all and neither does the Qur'ân say that Jesus would be going to hell. Everything points to the fact that the missionaries' argument is hollow and that they are contentious indeed!

This issue is also discussed as a logical fallacy committed by the Quraysh.

The reader would also notice that the best tafsîr of the Qur'ân is Qur'ân itself (notice how 21:98 is explained using 43:57-58), i.e., al-Qur'ân yufassiru bacduhu bacdan (different parts of the Qur'ân explain each other). What is given in a general way in one place is discussed in detail in some other place in the Qur'ân. What is dealt with briefly at one place is expanded in some other place. Such an exegesis involves the use of Context & Internal Relationships.

And Allah knows best!

My imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend . . .

Can not.

My imaginary friend is more powerful than all of yours put together...so there...take that!

ali87,
What would be the source of the english translation of Ibn Ishâq above? Just curious as to why you did not like my quotations from the very same historian that you quote from.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1805414#1805414

NO UR WRONG, I AM NOT QUOTING THE SAME PERSON AS YOU DID. i was quoting "Ibn Ishaq" NOT "A. Guillaume". what you gave me was the interpretation of an author who made an intrepretation of a historian who made an intrepretation of the life of mohammad!? and also to add to that if you got that info from the answering islam website which you probably did (answering islam is an anti islamic website for those who don't know) then it's even more intrepreted on the book, lollll, and i will post a lie they made about the book of A. Guillaume in my next post (by the way wasn't Alfred Guillaume christian?)

ANYWAY here's what you wrote in page number 4 of this forum, go check it urself if you dont believe me, i qoute:

" And they all have such fine literature for support.

"The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, which is a rendering of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", a biography of Muhammad written by an early Muslim scholar.

From Guillaume, op cit, page 369:

"The apostle said, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Masud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?" Muhayyisa answered, "Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off."

"The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, which is a "RENDErING" of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" LOLLLL

YOU COULDVE ATLEAST CHEATED LIKE SO MANY OTHER LIEING CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES AND TAKEN THE WORD "RENDERING" OUT, LOL BE MORE CAREFUL NEXT TIME, BUT EVEN NEXT TIME I'LL STILL DEBUNK IT FOR YOU AGAIN.

GO BRING THE ACTUAL SCRIPTURES WITH REFERENCE OF THE "HISTORIAN" HIMSELF, NOT SOME GUY WHO WROTE A BOOK ON HIM, LOL, AND THEN WE WILL HAVE A SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT IT.

AND ALLAH KNOWS BEST

AND ALSO YOU ASKED ME THIS:

"What would be the source of the english translation of Ibn Ishâq above? "

LOLLLL, IM GLAD YOU ASKED THAT, YOU CLEARLY PROVED YOUR IGNORANCE NOW. WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME?

UR "SUPPOSEDLY" QOUTING A HISTORAN (Ibn Ishaq) WHEN YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW THE ACTUAL SOURCES, AND YOU DEPEND ON SOME BOOK WRITTEN ON THE HISTORIAN? LOLL, YOU JUST PROVED THAT YOU DONT DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU FALL INTO BELIEVING SOMETHING. BUT ITS OK, GO BACK TO YOUR ANTI ISLAMIC WEBSITES AND DIG UP SOME MORE LIES, I'LL GLADLY DEBUNK THEM FOR YOU BY THE WILL OF ALLAH, AMEEN.

BTW THESE TWO LAST RESPONSES I MADE ARE TO mesquite, I FORGOT TO QUOTE HIM, LIKE HE FORGOT TO QOUTE Ibn Ishâq LOL

I have no idea what you think is funny about that question. You posted several lengthy quotes by Ibn Ishâq which were given in English, hence my question of the source of the translation. Did you translate them yourself? What is the source work from which the quotes were taken? Is it "Sirat Rasul Allah"?



The quotes I provided were sourced to the book and page number. In your other post you seemed to get great joy that I included the word "rendering" in the description of my source. In that context "rendering simply means

"9. To express in another language or form; translate."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rendering

The quotes you provided were sourced to nothing. I would not be surprised to find out that they are also from "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume.

http://www.desistore.com/ibnishaq.html

i like your game mesquite, but to be honest you gotta admit this is kind of unfair to me, since i am proving the bible to be a FALSE book by "IT'S OWN VERSES" and yet all you're giving me are narrations from "OTHER BOOK", "simply intrepretation by historians written on the life of mohammad way after his death". what if those historians were enemies of islam? why don't you read the Quran and try to provide me verses that prove it wrong? so far all you gave me from the Quran was just one verse: "When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Sura 9:5

that was the best you could do? that is so weak comparing to the horrific voilence that are in the bible!

it clearly says to forgive them if they repent for God is most forgiving most merciful!

but it's ok we'll play it your way, although "unfair" but we'll still play it ur way, u give me narrations from "OTHER BOOKS" to prove the Quran wrong, and i'll give you verses from the BIBLE TO PROVE ITSELF WRONG LOL

in the end the reader will judge for themself.


now as to Alfred Guillaume (who himself was a christian writing a book about islam, sounds kind of unfair?) this author intrepretes the writings of a historian who interprets the life of mohammad long after his death (One of the earliest and the most-famous biographies of Muhammad, written less
than [a] hundred years after his death, is Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq)

"Many Narrations were fabricated due to political influences. Muslims after the death of our Prophet did have several political conflicts with each others."

SO PLEASE GIVE ME VERSES FROM THE QURAN NOT FROM "OTHER BOOKS", THIS CLEARLY MAKES ME THE WINNER, I CAN GO DIG UP 100 BOOKS WRITTEN BY HISTORIANS ABOUT BIBLE'S FLAWS AND CHRISTIANITY'S CORRUPTNES, YET I CHOOSE NOT TO, SINCE I CAN EASILY PROVE THE BIBLE IS A FALSE BOOK BY IT'S OWN VERSES AND SCRIPTURES LOLLL


Some of the the Hadiths(NARRATIONS) when compared to the Noble Quran fall short and become doubtful, especially the ones that have along chain of transmitters and narrators.

now i will prove to you how these "OTHER BOOK'S" narrations clearly CONTRADICT the noble Quran.

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things); And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong. (The Noble Quran, 60:7-9)"

It is very clear, especially in Noble Verses 60:7-9 that Muslims did fall into the sin or mistake of mistreating non-Muslims or dealing unjustly with non-Muslims before. It appears from the text of Noble Verses 2:190 and 60:7-9 and others that GOD Almighty is Guiding the Muslims from straying away and falling into major sins to the Right and Just Path.

The reason why Muslims did carry much hard feeling toward the Jews is because Allah Almighty warned us from their deceptions in the Noble Quran:

"A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)"

As we can see from the Noble Verse, some Jews and Christians wanted to play tricks on the Muslims, by embracing Islam and later deserting it, to give the Muslims the impression that Islam is false and it is not worth adopting.

The Jews also betrayed the Muslims and broke treaties with them before. The Jews of Khaibar, for instance, were cleansed out from the Holy land of Medina because they betrayed the Muslims during the battle of Trench, where there were 3,000 pagans Vs. 700 Muslims. The Muslims made treaty with the Jews in Medina, to protect the northern part of the city, while the Muslims defend the southern part. But what can you say, Jews are Jews no matter how much you try to improve them, "except for a few of them (The Noble Quran, 5:13)". Nor Moses or Jesus ever liked them. In fact, Jesus told them that GOD Almighty will remove His Kingdom from them and give it to the Muslims. And later Prophet Muhammad suffered the same thing from them. They betrayed the Muslims and a group of pagans to attack from the north.

Have not Allah Almighty brought victory to the Muslims by sending winds that blinded the infidels and effected not the Muslims, and caused for the Muslims to defeat the pagans a sound defeat, and have them run away back to where they came from, then the Muslims wouldn't been literally whipped out:

"Behold! they came on you from above you and from below you, and behold, the eyes became dim and the hearts gaped up to the throats, and ye imagined various (vain) thoughts about God! In that situation were the Believers tried: they were shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease (even) say: "God and His Apostle promised us nothing but delusion!" Behold! A party among them said: "Ye men of Yathrib! ye cannot stand (the attack)! therefore go back!" And a band of them ask for leave of the Prophet, saying, "Truly our houses are bare and exposed," though they were not exposed they intended nothing but to run away. And if an entry had been effected to them from the sides of the (city), and they had been incited to sedition, they would certainly have brought it to pass, with none but a brief delay! And yet they had already covenanted with God not to turn their backs, and a covenant with God must (surely) be answered for. Say: "Running away will not profit you if ye are running away from death or slaughter; and even if (ye do escape), no more than a brief (respite) will ye be allowed to enjoy!" Say: "Who is it that can screen you from God if it be His wish to give you punishment or to give you Mercy?" Nor will they find for themselves, besides God, any protector or helper. Verily God knows those among you who keep back (men) and those who say to their brethren, "Come along to us", but come not to the fight except for just a little while. Covetous over you. Then when fear comes, thou wilt see them looking to thee, their eyes revolving, like (those of) one over whom hovers death: but when the fear is past, they will smite you with sharp tongues, covetous of goods. Such men have no faith, and so God has made their deeds of none effect: and that is easy for God. They think that the Confederates have not withdrawn; and if the Confederates should come (again), they would wish they were in the deserts (wandering) among the Bedouins, and seeking news about you (from a safe distance); and if they were in your midst, (The Noble Quran, 33:10-20)"


So to every objective reader out there, I ask that you be extra careful with the Hadiths and Islamic Narrations, because they were documented from 100 to 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. Many Hadiths and Narrations were fabricated due to political influences. Muslims after the death of our Prophet did have several political conflicts with each others.

So to all Truth Seekers and Objective Readers out there, please compare the Hadith or Narration to the Noble Quran. If they agree, then take them. Otherwise, discard them, because they are doubtful.

Please visit: Muslims beware of the corruption in the Hadiths and the Bible.


http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm

JUST ADMIT IT, THE JEWS DONT BELIEVE IN CHRIST TO BE THE MESSIAH, AND THEY WERE BEFORE YOU, THE JEWS DONT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE, AND THEY WERE BEFORE YOU, AND TO THIS DAY JEWS DONT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE, NOR JESUS TO BE THE MESSIAH, AND THEY ALL AGREE THAT THE BIBLE IS CORRUPT, AND THEY WERE BEFORE YOU. YET MUSLIMS BELIEVE JESUS TO BE THE MESSIAH, AND ALSO ONE OF THEIR MOST BELOVED PROPHETS, AND MUSLIMS ALSO BELIEVE JESUS WILL RETURN AT THE END OF THE WORLD. AFTER CHRISTIANS STARTED IDOL WORSHIPING JESUS, GOD SENT ANOTHER PROPHET AND THE LAST BOOK CALLED THE QURAN, AND NOW CHRISTIAN DONT BELIEVE IN ISLAM. ITS LIKE THIS:

JESUS CAME TO JEWS, AND THEY DIDNT ACCEPT HIM BECAUSE THEY SAID NO WE'RE WITH MOSES UR A FALSE PROPHET, AND AFTER JESUS MOHAMMAD CAME AND CHRISTIANS DIDNT ACCEPT HIM AND SAID NO WE'RE WITH JESUS UR A FALSE PROPHET!

YOU JUST DONT WANTTO ACCEPT ISLAM TO BE THE LAST RELIGION, BECAUSE YOU DONT WANNA ACCEPT THAT YOURE WRONG, THAT THOSE BEFORE YOU WERE WRONG!

See?....his imaginary friend IS better than yours!

Well, he certainly seems to be louder than mine anyway.

Substance: Water = There is no life w/o it.

Forms ICE (used in preserving/healing)

STEAM (A Source of Power)

The trinity works sort of like that.
One God 3 forms.

Ali,
I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into a lengthy debate with you over whose version of a superstition is the right one. Suffice it to say that any doubt that you want to cast upon the hadiths because of narration errors or political influences will also apply to the quran as there is NO surviving quran dating to Mohammad's time.

Whether you or a small number of muslims find error in the hadiths is immaterial. A very large number of muslims do consider the hadiths to be important documents used to help interpret meaning from the quran.

As with Christianity or Judaism, the is no consensus on interpretation of the religious texts or for that matter which religious texts are to be considered.

I have twice before asked you what is the source of the Ibn Ishâq quotes that you used to support your argument in this post.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1813637#1813637

You have not replied so I will ask again. Do you not know the source? Was it from Sirat Rasul Allah? Was Alfred Guillaume the author?

You continue to mischaracterize Alfred Guillaume's works as though he were writing an opinion piece rather than a translation of an arabic work. Rather than just innuendo, how about providing specifics as to how his translation erred from the original work concerning the quotes I cited.

mesquite once again you make a flying statement hoping it would pass:

"there is NO surviving quran dating to Mohammad's time."
if you're gonna say something, atleast provide some reference, have some proof to back up ur claim. now i will refute your LIE AGAIN by providing the readers a link about the preservation of the Quran, its too long to copy everything, so ill just provide the link, it also has photos of the very first Quran:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm

now as for the source of the english translation of ibn ishaq's (scholar) writings, it is Alfred Guillaume (who himself was a christian). he was the main translator of ibn ishaq's writings in the west.

i wonder what christians would think if a muslim translated a scholar's writings about the bible! (by the way did you know many scientists and scholars were executed by churchs orders in europe, for speaking against christianity?

i cant believe these ignorant ppl still remain today! as many extremest christians believe science to be an illusion! because they just dont wanna accept the truth. now in my next post i will provide how the bible claims that the earth is FLAT "WITH FOUR CORNERS", and how the Quran claimed it to be "egg shaped", (as you know earth isnt completly round)

i know what youre trying to get at mesquite, and im happy you brought it up again, go to pg 7 of this forum, and see the LIE that you ONCE AGAIN made about islam.

and "YOUR FAVOROTIE AUTHOR ALFRED GUILLAUME REFUTED YOUR LIES" LOLLL

THIS WAS THE COMMENT YOU MADE:

"If your parents were muslim, you have no choice but to be a muslim. The choice is made for you. Apostasy (leaving the religion) is the second highest crime under islamic law. It is second only to murder and the punishment is death."

AGAIN ON PG 7 OF THIS FORUM, YOU WILL SEE HOW I REFUTED YOUR LIES ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID WITH ALFRED GUILLAUME'S OWN BOOK, LOLL

lolll im so glad you brought it up again.


your ignorant views of islam are: "islam is what muslims did". NO thats not true since there were and still are many muslims that arent true muslims, as with every other religion on earth. and now i wantto ask you a question, you say muslims are forced to stay muslims right? then why is it that islam is the fastest growing religion in the US? is'nt US a free country? now i will provide proof and evidence for my claims, cuz i dont wantto be making a "flying statement"

this is from cnn.com and i qoute:

"Fastest-growing religion


The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.

Some scholars see an emerging Muslim renaissance as Islam takes root in many traditionally Christian communities."


http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/


"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..."
HILLARY RODMAN CLINTON, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3


Already more than a billion-people strong, Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. ABCNEWS,
Abcnews.com


"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the country." NEWSDAY, March 7, 1989, p.4


"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States..." NEW YORK TIMES, Feb 21, 1989, p.1


Moslems are the world's fastest-growing group..." USA TODAY, The populationreferance bureau, Feb. 17,
1989, p.4A


"Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities. " Encyclopedia Britannica


"There are more Muslims in North America then Jews Now." Dan Rathers, CBSNEWS


"Islam is the fastest growing religion in North America." TIMES MAGAZINE


"Islam continues to grow in America, and no one can doubt that!" CNN, December 15, 1995


"The religion of Islam is growing faster than any other religion in the world." MIKE WALLACE, 60
MINUTES


"Five to 6 million strong, Muslims in America already outnumber Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Mormons,
and they are more numerous than Quakers, Unitarians, Seventh-day Adventists, Mennonites, Jehovah's
Witnesses, and Christian Scientists, combined. Many demographers say Islam has overtaken Judaism as the
country's second-most commonly practiced religion; others say it is in the passing lane." JOHAN BLANK,
USNEWS (7/20/98)


if you don't believe in the qoutes made above then simply type it in and see for yourself.

oh im sorry this wasnt evidence, these are just qoutes made by some famous ppl and news programs like CNN. i thought that was enough, but if you want evidence just ask for it.



now i will bring up the bible's cruelty

what about the crusaders huh? they were the bloodiest murdurers the world has ever seen, killing and raping innocent muslim and jews by the thousands for they believed! so then does that give me the authority to say that chritianity allows this?

go to this link and see the REAL TERRORISM IN THE BIBLE, AND ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE CRUSADERS, THAT IS ONLY A SMALL PART OF IT.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_personal_revenge.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_personal_revenge.htm

Ironically, one of the Bible's 10 pillars or ten Commandments says: "Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)." Yet, innocent children and non-virgin women were ordered to be killed by the mass, perhaps in thousands! 3-year old slave girls were also ordered to be raped by Moses.

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

A praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge:

Psalm 137:8-9
8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young), and innocent domestic farm animals by the tens of thousands! It is clear that the inconsistent man-altered, man-corrupted and morally corrupt bible is nothing but a false book, and can not be a Divine and Perfect Holy Book!

I challenge any Jew or Christian to produce ONE, JUST ONE Noble Verse from the Muslims' Noble Quran that condones killing of innocent children, women or even hostile enemy men who drop their weapons before Muslims (surrender).

are you gonna disown your bible now? because of how prophet moses is portrayed in your bible? go check the verses in your bible buddy.

Excuse me ali87,

Isn't it true that the Muslims were also involved in the Crusades? Does it matter who started the wars? What matters is both Christianity and Muslims were involved. So does Islam allow this?

GO TO THIS LINK. IT IS AN AUDIO REBUTTAL ON THE SO CALLED "SCIENTIFIC ERRORS" IN THE NOBLE QURAN, ITS REALLY INTERESTING. AND IT ALSO PROVES HOW THE BIBLE CLEARLY DECLARED EARTH TO BE FLAT!



http://www.answering-christianity.com/is_muhammad_true_prophet_8.mp3