To revisit this thread and the subject of Hubert Humphrey. I asserted that Hubert Humphrey, considered the model liberal of his day, was actually distinctly more conservative than todays liberals, demonstrating my assertion that politics is drifting left. Parados and I carried on a heated debate that eventually drifted far afield. Parados, you complained I made statements unsupported by referenced information. Well I have a bit more to offer, but I will try not to make this too long. First of all, the list of issues and my original gradings of Humphrey:
1. Size, Scope, and Power of Government - Humphrey L, Bush M
2. Economic Policy / Taxes - Humphrey L, Bush M
3. Defense / Terrorism - Humphrey C, Bush C
4. Foreign Policy / Trade - Humphrey ? but maybe M or C, Bush C
5. Social Security - Humphrey L, Bush M
6. Health Care - Humphrey L, Bush L
7. Welfare - Humphrey L, Bush M
8. Education - Humphrey L, Bush L
9. Energy - Humphrey M or C, Bush C
10. Civil Rights - Humphrey L, Bush M
12. Illegal Immigration - Humphrey M or C, Bush M
13. Crime / Drug Policy - Humphrey C, Bush C
14. Environment - Humphrey M, Bush M
15. Religion & Government - Humphrey C, Bush C
16. Private Property Rights - Humphrey ? but probably M or C, Bush C
17. Public Lands Policy - Humphrey M or C, Bush C
18. Organized Labor - Humphrey L, Bush M
19. Morality / Family Values - Humphrey C, Bush C
20. Gay Marriage - Humphrey ? but probably M to L, Bush M
21. Gun Control - Humphrey? but probably M or C, Bush C
I counted M as 50%.
I will now only address the ones where I graded Humphrey M or C, and I would also say that for the ones where I possibly graded Humphrey an M, my burden of proving my argument is not as great:
3. Defense / Terrorism - Humphrey C, Bush C
I rated Humphrey conservative because he was generally strong on defense, very patriotic, anti-communist, and only in his latter years did he try to extend olive branches to the peace activists, anti-vietnam protestors and the new liberal wing of the party that emerged at the time of his running for the presidency.
http://www.counterpunch.org/taylor0813.html
http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&DocID=1157
4. Foreign Policy / Trade - Humphrey ? but maybe M or C, Bush C
I really don't know what to make of this one, so I won't address it. I really do not know how to characterize liberal and conservative on this, and I don't know about Humphrey.
9. Energy - Humphrey M or C, Bush C
I contend that Humphrey's generation was much more traditional, and "oil" was not a dirty word, and was not considered to be by Hubert Humphrey. The following link talks about some experiences of geologists with various senators and the atmosphere of cooperation, not opposition with oil finders into the 60's.
http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/2004/wilson/index.htm
11. Abortion - Humphrey M, Bush M
Even early feminists opposed abortion, and by 1965 virtually all states had outlawed abortion except to save the life of the mother. I am not aware that Humphrey crusaded against the common cultural view of his generation.
http://womenshistory.about.com/od/abortionuslegal/a/abortion.htm
Further, we have quotes like this from Humphrey:
"It was once said that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped. " One can argue about what the dawn of life means, but when you honestly look at the context of society and the generation of Hubert Humphrey, I would find it very hard to believe he would be an avid pro abortionist. Even politicians like Al Gore, the epitomy of a modern liberal, opposed abortion earlier in his career.
12. Illegal Immigration - Humphrey M or C, Bush M
13. Crime / Drug Policy - Humphrey C, Bush C
I will lump these two together. I point out again that when Humphrey was nominated at the 68 convention, the convention was rocked with riots and unruly mobs in the streets. Humphrey represented the old guard Democrats, which these people were protesting against, and he was very opposed to such activity, hence these statements in his acceptance speech:
"Every American, black or white, rich or poor, has the right in this land of ours to a safe and a decent neighborhood. And on this there can be no compromise. I put it very bluntly. Rioting, sniping, mugging, traffic in narcotics and disregard for law are the advance guard of anarchy and they must and they will be stopped. But may I say most respectfully, particularly to some who have spoken before, the answer lies in reasoned, effective action by state, local and federal authority. The answer does not lie in an attack on our courts, our laws or our Attorney General. We do not want a police state, but we need a state of law and order. And neither mob violence nor police brutality have any place in America. And I pledge to use every resource that is available to the President to end for once and for all the fear that is in our cities."
One could argue that everyone is for law and order, but I would submit that many Democrats since about 1970 engaged in or have been sympathetic to civil disobedience and are rather proud of it still. Humphrey was in no way shape or form part of that mindset, and not only did he believe in law and order, but he made a point of including those strong statements in his speech. I believe this more conservative philosophy as common for his generation for both Democrats and Republicans would apply to both the crime and illegal immigration issues.
14. Environment - Humphrey M, Bush M
One only needs to go back to history and see that the environment did not become much a political issue until the 70's. Neither Nixon or Humphrey mentioned it to speak of. Humphrey may have been for conservation, and helped create wilderness, but he did not advocate the locking up of most federal land at the expense of energy production, mining, logging, grazing, and other multiple use activities. The strident environmental Democrats are clearly to the left of where Humphrey was in the prime his political career. Note I do not rate Humphrey a C, however.
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.30/pub_detail.asp
15. Religion & Government - Humphrey C, Bush C
Simply read his speeches and you do not find a paranoia of mentioning God or religious influence on government. In fact in his acceptance speech he quotes the pledge: "I take my stand. We are and we must be one nation -- united by liberty and justice for all, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. This is our America."
He clearly says that "our America" is one that is one nation "under God." That attitude was clearly the attitude of Hubert's generation. It is not the attitude of the leftist Demcrat of today.
16. Private Property Rights - Humphrey ? but probably M or C, Bush C
I thought I had a link here, but couldn't find it, but suffice it to say it would be a stretch to argue that Humphrey would have been against private property rights as some socialist - left leaning liberals are now, but since I can't cite anything in particular here, I will concede this point and give an L to Humphrey even though I see little proof of that rating as well.
17. Public Lands Policy - Humphrey M or C, Bush C
In the following link: this quote:
"Is that the way it was supposed to work? No way. When the National Forest Management Act was passed in 1976, Senator Hubert Humphrey proclaimed something to the effect that we have now taken national forest management out of the courts and given it back to the professionals. Instead, the opposite has happened."
Of course, what we have are liberal left organizations like the Sierra Club and others that have placed the management of public lands into the courts and have taken it out of the hands of professionals, as Humphrey thought he was doing and was in favor of, which would of course be consistent with public lands policies advocated by most people of his generation. We have seen a definite turn to the left in regard to multiple use advocacy among the leftist liberal element of today. They wish to lock up virtually all public land from any energy production or other uses.
http://www.safnet.org/policyandpress/psst/safplanningtestimony.cfm
19. Morality / Family Values - Humphrey C, Bush C
20. Gay Marriage - Humphrey ? but probably M to L, Bush M
I will lump these two together. Many sources can point out the distinct difference of the older generation Democratic liberals, of which Humphrey was a member, and the new social liberals that grew out of the disorder and rejection of traditional values in the 60's and 70's.
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253363&kaid=127&subid=171
You could argue that we do not know what Humphrey's stance on Gay Marriage was, but a better argument points out that it was not an issue because virtually nobody of his generation even considered it feasible or logical, so it is certainly illogical to argue that Humphrey would be as socially liberal as the modern liberal in regard to morality, family values, and gay marriage.
21. Gun Control - Humphrey? but probably M or C, Bush C
Here again, Humphrey displays the more conservative social attitude of his generation, as evidenced by this quote:
"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms. This is not to say that firearms should not be very carefully used and that definite rules of precaution should not be taught and enforced. But the right of the citizen to bear arms is just one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible."
While it is clear that Humphrey was a prominent liberal of his generation, and that is why I picked him as an example to argue my point, there is nevertheless much evidence that he is more conservative on many issues than the modern liberal. In my opinion, this comparison serves to argue very strongly that politics have very definitely drifted to the left. For those of us that lived through the 50's until now, it is a common perception. And one only needs to ask an older generation, of which my parents are, and they will affirm that perception even more. Parados insists on links and proof beyond a reasonable doubt as if we are in a courtroom here. So I've provided a few more links. More could be provided but I think this should be long enough.
One last point concerning the arguments here, part of the problem is that some of today's issues simply were not issues in Humphrey's day. One could argue that the evidence is limited because of somewhat limited information, but I contend that the fact some things were not yet issues proves even further that if some of those issues were not issues, then that fact alone proves the drift of our culture to the left.
Of course I doubt I've budged you at all, Parados, but at least it has been interesting to me and I believe I've made some valid arguments to support my point.
Oh, one last tidbit I forgot, here is this quote about Hubert Humphrey concerning quotas, etc. stemming from the Civil Rights legislation:
"When Congress adopted the Civil Rights Act of 1964, supporters insisted it would never lead to preferences or quotas; Sen. Hubert Humphrey offered to eat the pages of the bill if that happened." So apparently Humphrey was against quotas and preferences, so even though I rated Humphrey liberal in this respect, it looks like he is to the right of the modern liberal in this regard, as quotas and preferences are clearly advocated by many as a way to right the wrongs of the past. And it appears Humphrey would be suffering from indigestion these days after eating the pages of the bill. The above quote from:
http://www.akst.com/collision.htm
And one last observation from my Dad, who has a pretty clear memory concerning politics. His main observation was that "Humphrey was quite a talker" and that he was very convincing if he could talk long enough, which he often did. He said that he had Nixon and Wallace almost convinced to cast their vote for him in the 68 election, and would have if the campaign had lasted another day or two.
