Let's talk about Paul...

real life wrote:

You'd think that people would have had enough of silly love songs. But lookin' round me and I see it isn't so.

Some people want to fill the world with silly love songs. What's wrong with that, I'd like to know.

What IS wrong with that?

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"I like silly love songs..."

heph says with little hearts floating around her head...

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I like love songs too, just was getting into the spirit of the thing. Plus, I have had a long standing debate with my brother on who was better, he likes Paul and I liked Lennon. Lennon had quite a few love songs himself; mostly about Yoko. "Oh, Yoko.." "Woman"

Anyway, back to Paul the apostle I guess. A question. Why does it seem these two contradict?

Quote:

Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Quote:

Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

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To understand this better I decided to look up the original greek word used in both passages for "hearing" and "heard". Interestingly enough, to my surprise, it was the same word used in both instances:

191. akouo ak-oo'-o a primary verb; to hear (in various senses):--give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), (shall) hear(-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.

I don't believe this is contradictory having looked at the definition. I believe in both scriptures they did in fact hear a voice, but what it boiled down to was they didn't understand the voice they were hearing. Like standing in a grocery store behind two people speaking spanish. If you don't know spanish you hear them but you don't understand what they are saying. So you can't "hear" them in the sense that you could respond to what they are saying. Ya know what I mean Vern?

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obviouly he just breathed the scriptue into the gospel writers and they wrote it according to their side.

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holy_rosary wrote:

obviouly he just breathed the scriptue into the gospel writers and they wrote it according to their side.

Well, I'm convinced.

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According to their side? Can you explain that holy_rosary, please?

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I really enjoy doing this research. Having looked at the bible as I always have if there are contradictions in it I've missed them all. However I'm willing to look at any of them that anyone would like to share here. So please feel free. I'll do all the work, it's proving to be good exercise for my brain as well as challenging why I believe what I believe. Any takers?

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hephzibah wrote:

To understand this better I decided to look up the original greek word used in both passages for "hearing" and "heard". Interestingly enough, to my surprise, it was the same word used in both instances:

191. akouo ak-oo'-o a primary verb; to hear (in various senses):--give (in the) audience (of), come (to the ears), (shall) hear(-er, -ken), be noised, be reported, understand.

I don't believe this is contradictory having looked at the definition. I believe in both scriptures they did in fact hear a voice, but what it boiled down to was they didn't understand the voice they were hearing. Like standing in a grocery store behind two people speaking spanish. If you don't know spanish you hear them but you don't understand what they are saying. So you can't "hear" them in the sense that you could respond to what they are saying. Ya know what I mean Vern?

This explanation seems reasonable to me, thanks.

I have another one (just mainly to have something to study.) (also it is truly another one of those things I have never reconciled within myself)

Why does Jesus say that God is greater than he is, but Paul said Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God?

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

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A better translation of Philippians 2:6: ". . . who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Keep in mind that one of the primary causes of Satan's rebellion was just that: He wished to usurp God's sovereignty and make himself equal to God.

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Revel,

I am looking forward to looking deeper into this. It is a valid question. One I have wondered about myself actually. I have a busy day today, but I'll be back later tonight to study this one! Thanks!

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Hephzibah

I asked someone last night and while he didn't have much time, he did answer the question to at least give me a sense of direction.

He said that when Jesus was born, he was born a little lower than the angels, so while he was on earth as man, the first statement where Jesus said God is greater than he is; is true. Also the second statement where Paul said that it was not robbery for Jesus to equal with God is also true because he is also the Son of God and after his death he was glorified and sits on the right hand side of God.

I don't explain it well and it would take a while to get all the relevant verses, but the explanation makes sense to me.

Another thing which has always confused me even more is the part in the Old testament where God said he was the only God and there is no other beside him. I have always wondered, how then can Jesus have existed before he was born the Son of man, yet in gospel of John, it says he was there when the world began. It is all so confusing to me.

Quote:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

Quote:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I never did buy that theory of God actually literally being three people at once, because why would Jesus pray to himself or call himself father or sit on the right hand side of himself? It don't make any sense.

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Awesome revel! What a good answer that was! I've done some studying on this myself and will still post the results when I finish it if you would like. If not though we can just move on. I keep getting side tracked here, and now I have to go to work early! ACK. So I won't get to finish this as I had hoped to this morning. The nice thing is I should be getting out early tonight! YAY, which will give me a little more time to chat with you about these things if you are here. I promise I'll try to get back to you tonight! I should be on around 10:30. Talk to you soon.

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Revel... Wow... did some studying on this... this is gonna be an interesting feat... LOL not too sure exactally how to explain this one... I'm thinking as I do my little random posts here on exactally why do I believe what I believe about Jesus being the Son... How did He get to be the Son... Does it say anywhere in the bible where He came from... I never thought about this before... I'll be getting with you soon to toss a few idea's around... but since S&R has been so quiet tonight I'm posting random thoughts here and there... well everywhere... so here's one for ya...

Random Thought:

People are valuable. We all came from the same place... we all die eventually... So why then do we think we are better than anyone else?

see next thread for the continued conversation with myself...

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It's ok to talk to your self; I used to do it on a friendlier message board site just to keep the site going sometimes.

I never used to think about these subjects that I have brought up before coming to religious message boards. I used to belong to Lycos Christianity and the bible and the pace and style of it was so different. For one thing, there were a lot more believers than non believers but there were more Gnostics, earth (I forgot the correct name) believers, Muslims and a few Jewish as well as Messiac (?spell) Judaism and just one or two out and out atheist. After 9/11 the openly Muslim posters seemed to have dropped out of sight but before that it got vicious between the Christians and the Muslims. I am a Christians but I have different beliefs than a lot of them both religiously and politically so that left me in a kind of in an odd position. More often than not other than my Christian views, I found myself on the Muslim side which didn't endure to me to my fellow Christians. Even after they left (or seemed to) I still was on the outside of my fellow Christians in most views. I guess I have carried that over in this forum. By the time the site ended, I had few posters that I had anything in common with. So I stuck to mainly riding the fence and talking of personal everyday things which didn't have any controversies.

How is that for talking to ones self?

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revel wrote:

Hephzibah

I asked someone last night and while he didn't have much time, he did answer the question to at least give me a sense of direction.

He said that when Jesus was born, he was born a little lower than the angels, so while he was on earth as man, the first statement where Jesus said God is greater than he is; is true. Also the second statement where Paul said that it was not robbery for Jesus to equal with God is also true because he is also the Son of God and after his death he was glorified and sits on the right hand side of God.

I don't explain it well and it would take a while to get all the relevant verses, but the explanation makes sense to me.

Another thing which has always confused me even more is the part in the Old testament where God said he was the only God and there is no other beside him. I have always wondered, how then can Jesus have existed before he was born the Son of man, yet in gospel of John, it says he was there when the world began. It is all so confusing to me.

Quote:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

Quote:
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I never did buy that theory of God actually literally being three people at once, because why would Jesus pray to himself or call himself father or sit on the right hand side of himself? It don't make any sense.

May I get in on this conversation? If you study the Greek text of John's Gospel, you will find a more accurate translation of vs. 1 to be: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." (emphasis added) This is in keeping with Jesus identity as being the firstborn of his father.

If you are interested in Jesus' prehuman existence, read Proverbs chapter 8 and tell me what you think.

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Neo, you have studied much of the bible, yes? You are very diligent with your answers and they are right on target. Smile

Revel,

Thank you for your patiences with my slow responses. I too hold very different perspectives on issues than a lot of christians. However one thing I have decided is that if there is something that I feel very strongly about, that's a deep rooted belief, I'm not going to lay that out to the masses to be picked apart and prodded at. Everyone develops their beliefs about whatever out of something, and some of the ways I believe are a direct result of certain things that happened in my life. To lay them out and watch others tear them apart would be entirely too painful for me. And would leave me in such emotional dismay I could end up leaving and not coming back. So there are certain issues that no one in an open forum will never know where I stand on. It is to guard my own heart. Maybe that's selfish... I don't know.

I am sad to say I have lived a sheltered life in some respects, concerning religion. I know what I believe and why for the most part, but have rarely had the opportunity to talk to anyone honestly about their beliefs who believed differently from me. A2K has opened many doors for that, and I am extremely grateful. I'm looking forward to discussing things with you. And hearing your side of it too. Thanks for backing me up on the talking to yourself thing... LOL I was so stinkin bored last night! I'll talk to you soon.

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Neologist, sometimes it takes me a few times to acutally "get it" but I am not sure how that translation makes it any different. I will study on it some more later as time permits. Thank you for sharing and of course you get in on the discussion. I am just throwing some random thoughts/concerns that I have had these last couple of years.

Hephzibah, everyone needs to do what they feel best. Sometimes I share too much, probably more than anyone else is interested in. Like I said before sharing my views on message boards, some of these subjects never occured to me as everyone around me is a christian as well and everyone in my family goes to the same church (when they go) and believes in the same doctrines. I grew up in my religion and my dad was a preacher and an adult bible school teacher most of my life. So I guess I was sheltered too. Makes me old and jaded now I guess. :wink:

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Revel, surely you can see the difference between 'a god', meaning divine and 'God', meaning identity with his father, no?

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Yes, but the greek translation still says that the "Word was with God", (the word being Jesus.)My problem is that I am trying to reconcile how the Word/Jesus was with God in the beginning when in the old testament it states quite a few times that there was no one else beside God. (or similar words to that effect)

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