Let's talk about Paul...

here's a question, how did a perfect god, let so much of his word be transfered through so many imperfect people, if i wanted the story to get out right, i'd have made sure that i used some divine intervention to guide the authors hand

This is a good point djjd. Here's what I believe: Adam and Eve were in perfect relationship with God before they ate of the tree He commanded them not to eat from. When they ate of that tree they became separated from Him spiritually, which caused Him to separated them physically as well by kicking them out of the Garden of Eden so they wouldn't eat from the tree of life and live eternally in this state of spiritual separation from God.

From that point on mankind was doomed to imperfection because of the disobedience of Adam and Even. However, God had a plan of redemption. Jesus. That still does not disqualify that man was imperfect because of the origional sin. So, if you were God and you had to get a point across and your choice was to either use someone who was imperfect or no one at all, what would your choice be?

Heph, I look forward to hearing from others on this topic as well. I started writing out a longish description of my thoughts but I think this link says anything I might say better than I could.

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/paulorigin.html

ok, but i'm god (well not me), i can make the heavens and the earth, can't i make sure that my words get out, i know the writers are imperfect, but can't i kinda work some magic, put the right words in there heads and bang, my bible is the perfect text

the argument that it was a text translated by imperfect men, means that the whole thing could be wrong, a long shot i know, but we've all played the game where somebody whispers something in one persons ear, and they whisper it in somebody elses and by the time i t gets around the room, it bears little or no resemblence to what was orginally said

LOL your funny. Again a good point. No it doesn't work like that djjd. It's like putting new wine into old wineskins. If you do that the old wineskins will burst. Think about it this way: You put a shinney new quarter into a gumball machine to get a gumball. The quarter is new, but who know's how long that gumball you are getting has been sitting in that machine? Regardless of the fact that you put a new quarter in there, that doesn't guarantee you a new gumball. The only way to get one is to either make it yourself or buy an unopened package from the store. You know what I'm saying here?

I've actually used the very same scenario in different situations. And you are right, who's to guarantee that what you are reading is right? Who really? I've thought about this a lot because there's so many stinkin translations of the bible out now a days. I've wondered, is any one of them right? I prefer the new king james version, however it is quite differently worded in some area's than the king james version. Who's really to say which one is right? I got to the point where I study it intensively but not just for what it is translated as. I look up the hebrew and greek. I look with the sources I have. It has done wonders for my understanding of things.

Being frank, I don't know that there is a "right" translation of the bible out there. But I believe in the God behind it. He's changed my life, my heart, my everything. I know I can't prove this to you. I can only tell you what I know to be truth in my own life. I don't believe the bible is translated 100% correct. But I believe that the truths God has shown me out of the bible are 100% correct in my own heart. I live by my conscience. Well, I do my best to, and the convictions that are in my heart. A lot of what I have learned to be right and wrong has come from the bible, but not purely from what it says. It's been reading what it says, applying it to my life, and seeing the end result.

Maybe that sounds like a lot of bologna to you. I apologize if it does. I can only be who I am. I know I love God. I know I love the bible, even though I know those who wrote it were imperfect. I guess in a way knowing they were imperfect helps me to realize that God doesn't expect perfection from me. He knows my weakness'. He knows I'm going to fall short sometimes. And yet He still loves me. And yet sometimes I can use what was meant for my destruction to help someone else get through the same thing. To live up to a standard of perfection is too much for anyone. Try as we may we will always fall short in one way or another.

This is one of the reason's I get so aggravated with people who call themselves "christians" sometimes. They put out this standard they say others should live by, that even they themselves couldn't live by! They think they are, they say they are, yet their blaring imperfections are evident to everyone but themselves! It is sad because they actually believe God expects them to live by a standard that isn't humanly possible. One thing you will find about me is I won't pretend to be something I'm not. I know I'm imperfect. I know I say dumb stuff sometimes. I know I don't live by the 10 commandments and all the other things "religion" requires. I don't care, to be honest. I believe my heart is right before God because I live by my conscience.

I thought we were talking about Paul McCartney...

LOL too funny!

cd when I saw that you posted here, I just knew you had said something like that.

hep, I don't see what you're talking about at all....the gumball thing?

djjd, right with you, I've used the same example of playing telephone...I don't think it's funny at all.

I think that's straight talk.

the gumball and wine skin thing lost me

Gum wine maybe?





The thought of not being sure of which is the correct translation recently came up on another thread, and it deeply disturbed me.

If you are not sure if the translation you are getting is true, you better back off real quick and do some thinking.

Countless people have died because of translations of texts from many relegions. My thought would be "do I want to be a part of something that whether or not someone believes this "correct" translation could mean their life?

I don't want to repeat is all, but if you search for my name in the why don't you believe in the god of the bible thread, where my premise is "man lies"

You know, it really should be this complicated.

I'd rather listen to someone straight talk that gets to the point in a straightforward manner.

my biggest problem is, up until 1455 and the ivention of moveable type, most bibles were property of the church and the church alone, this gives some odd 1400 years of people telling these stories word of mouth and some text, then being translated and illuminated by monks and who knows what changes were made to satisfy the whims and needs of what prelate at the time, once the bible was widely available to a growing literate populace it couldn't be tampered with, but for about 3/4's of it's existence it was firmly in the hands of the church, and let's face it sometimes the church has had it's problems

Hephzibah, if the message was so important, why do you suppose that Jesus failed to write it down himself? Even his disciples couldn't agree on the details, once he was gone.

Why allow Paul (who never actually met Jesus) to change the original message to make it appealing to Gentiles?

Why rely on oral transmittal for decades, then have a lot of people who got the testimony second or third hand each write their own versions, then have other people edit/revise the stories, then spend centuries on political fighting to decide which of the many manuscripts floating aorund should be included in the Canon and which were "pious frauds" that did not reflect the desired theology?

Terry has caught the right of it. These are the questions concerning Paul and his gospels. This guy was the biggest contributor of the New Testament, the testament that today's Christian's tell us is the new covenant, the only portion of the Bible that is really important to salvation etc etc.

Odd that he was so removed from the events of which he's writing. Odd that his version differs so greatly from what was already in existence. I'm rather intrigued to see answers to some of Terry's questions.

djjd... I'm sorry I lost you there... lol... ok I lost myself on that one... I'm dealing with more than one thing at a time here and trying to make it all work. Apparently it's not working so well for me. It sure made sense when I typed it though! oh boy...

Terry, this is what I'm trying to find out here. I don't understand a lot of this stuff. I've never studied anything much more than the bible. I'm openly admitting this because I want to understand the other sides of this issue. I believe in God. That will not change. I've been through too much to deny He exists and is very present in my life. But I know that a lot I have been taught up to this point has been bologna. So will someone help me out here to understand please? I know I need to study some stuff here on my own, but I think some people have insight here I need to hear...

I fully support other people's right to believe what they wish. In accordance with that statement, I'd advise you that the types of questions you are asking could very well shake what faith you have. Just a warning to you. That you are seeking out answers to these questions is commendable.

I'll be watching this with some interest, unless it turns into yet another S&R pissing match.

A course . . . here, Tom Lehrer has some words of wisdom for ya . . .


First you get down on your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your heads with great respect
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect, yeah!

Do whatever steps you want if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff
Everybody say his own Kyrie eleison
Doin' the Vatican Rag ! ! !

Get in line in that processional
Step into that small confessional
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original

If it is try playin' it safer
Drink the wine and chew the wafer
Two, four, six, eight
Time to transubstantiate

Make a cross on your abdomen
When in Rome do like a Roman
Ave Maria, gee it's good to see ya
Getting ecstatic an' sorta dramatic an'
Doin' the Vatican Rag ! ! !

Dog Gammit Set, don't go running all the christians off now! I'm wanting to see some answers here.

Actually, Q, i think i can say with confidence that i am responsible for this thread, indirectly.

No doubt. I would argue that you are largely responsible for the influx of Christians to this site to begin with. Evil as prolific as yours must be countered at all costs.