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Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 02:53 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

What is warranted is the statement that a positive belief that a God exists is unwarranted. That is by no means to claim knowledge that no God exists. I also have no evidence that the world was constructed by magical mice, so I won't waste my time believing that either.

Not quite. The fact is that, without god you have no explanation whatever for the existence or creation of the world and your own consciousness. Moreover, there is no basis on which you can expect that human science will ever provide one. Is the decision to go forward in the greip of that dilemma (or, as is far more comnmon,to simply put it out of mind) also "warranted"??

I suppose the cavemen would have been warranted in believing that elves cause rain because they had no better explanation. Even if there is no cause to believe that we will ever be able to explain a phenomenon, that certainly doesn't validate the correctness of an explanation that someone puts forward without evidence.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 02:55 pm
spendius wrote:
Brandon wrote-

Quote:
Just because organizing and running societies may be difficult is certainly no evidence that a God exists. Your position is logically incorrect. The idea that not believing things without evidence is "hiding" is preposterous.


Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough.The argument that God exists or does not exist is,as George points out quite often,completely pointless.
It uses up mental energy which could be put to a useful purpose.It is as if those in this argument about the existence or non-existence of God wish to be out of the loop because that is where they are.There are many reasons why people take both positions which are entirely about themselves and about nothing else.

If you argue that there is no God you need to have ready a mechanical system of government in case your argument is so persuasive that everybody converts to your position.You can't make an argument which is relying on not being effective to not sound silly.
The argument that there is a God has got a long and successful history behind it and is quite ready for everybody to be converted.

I couldn't possibly have argued that there is a God because I haven't the faintest idea one way or the other.But I know one thing for sure and that is that only sheer terror could organise 280 million like me
into the sort of orderly arrangement I'm in favour of.Perhaps you are more civilised than I am or,at least,think you are.I prefer the Holy Father to Big Brother which is what you would HAVE to have with 280 million aetheists especially in difficult times.
If you prefer Big Brother your position is perfectly understandable.

None of this is evidence that a God exists. You're just playing games.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 03:52 pm
Setanta wrote:
George continues his nonsense. Science does not suffer from a lack of a reference to a creator--the examination of the physical properties of the cosmos does not require an explanation of cosmic origins to proceed in a methodical nature.

It is a canard that any explanation of the origin of the cosmos is necessary to the human race at all. Some people may want to manufacture imaginary friend stories--but no one needs an explanation.


Very deceptive and unscientific reasoning here. Of course science does not need an explanation of the singularity (the mathematical term), with which it must assume the universe began, in order to codify the observable physical processes in the universe. That is not - and never has been - the point. Science cannot and likely will never explain the singularity itself. In all scientific models, the existence of a mathematical singularity is a recognized indication of incompleteness in the theoretical description from which it arises.

Setanta evidently claims to "need" no explanation of his origins and that of the universe. However the human energy expended in search of one, generation after generation, throughout recorded history, and the evident preoccupation of manypeoplewith the question argues verystronglythat he is either very atypical or inexperienced and boasting.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 03:57 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Setanta wrote:
George continues his nonsense. Science does not suffer from a lack of a reference to a creator--the examination of the physical properties of the cosmos does not require an explanation of cosmic origins to proceed in a methodical nature.

It is a canard that any explanation of the origin of the cosmos is necessary to the human race at all. Some people may want to manufacture imaginary friend stories--but no one needs an explanation.


Very deceptive and unscientific reasoning here. Of course science does not need an explanation of the singularity (the mathematical term), with which it must assume the universe began, in order to codify the observable physical processes in the universe. That is not - and never has been - the point. Science cannot and likely will never explain the singularity itself. In all scientific models, the existence of a mathematical singularity is a recognized indication of incompleteness in the theoretical description from which it arises.

Setanta evidently claims to "need" no explanation of his origins and that of the universe. However the human energy expended in search of one, generation after generation, throughout recorded history, and the evident preoccupation of manypeoplewith the question argues verystronglythat he is either very atypical or inexperienced and boasting.

The desire to know the nature of the universe in no way validates an explanation advanced without evidence that it is the correct explanation.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:11 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
The desire to know the nature of the universe in no way validates an explanation advances without evidence that it is the correct explanation.


If you use the term in reference to "validation" in the scientific sense, then I quite agree. Indeed the belief in or assumption of the existence of a creator is just that -- a belief and an assumption. I certainly do not offer it as, or consider it to be, a scientific observation or deduction.

As an "explanation" it satisfies me in terms of my own spiritual and intellectual life. That does not preclude me from revising my assessment or explanation in the very unlikely event that significant new information should arise.

Alterenatively, one could go forward with no assumptiuon and no explanation. I have no quarrel with that position. Many here appear to me to argue that the idea of a creator is somehow absurd. In the absence of an alternative explanation for our origins on their part, I note that this position is just as arbitrary and unprovable as belief in a creator and, unlike it, still leaves no answer for the question of our origins. Which is more absurd?
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:15 pm
Quote:

I note that this position is just as arbitrary and unprovable as belief in a creator and, unlike it, still leaves no answer for the question of our origins. Which is more absurd?


Once you have 'the answer' you are far less likely to seek for it.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:16 pm
Quote:
your thesis is bankrupt. In just a single striking example, Chinese culture has flourished for thousands of years without a state establishment of religion.


Discreet embarrassed coughing.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:24 pm
Quote:
None of this is evidence that a God exists. You're just playing games.


I thought I had said you were and provided an argument to prove it.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:32 pm
Doktor S wrote:
Once you have 'the answer' you are far less likely to seek for it.
Speak for yourself.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:35 pm
Setanta wrote:
Apart from there not being 280 millions in the world "like you"--thank Dog--your thesis is bankrupt. In just a single striking example, Chinese culture has flourished for thousands of years without a state establishment of religion.



I believe you should revisit your history here Setanta. Not only isn't the Chinese case "striking", it isn't an example at all. Are you losing the 'mandate of heaven' as the site historian?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:50 pm
As i have pointed out to you in another thread, George, i have never claimed to be an historian of any description. Chinese civilization rose from the neolithic and flourished literally for millenia, and had no establishment of religion, and no priesthood. If you feel you are in a position to dispute that contention, by all means do so.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 04:55 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Setanta evidently claims to "need" no explanation of his origins and that of the universe. However the human energy expended in search of one, generation after generation, throughout recorded history, and the evident preoccupation of manypeoplewith the question argues verystronglythat he is either very atypical or inexperienced and boasting.


There is nothing deceptive or "unscientific" about pointing out that an examination of the physical characteristics of the cosmos requires no reference to cosmic origins. Nor do you provide any disputation of that assertion.

How silly you are with your attempts to insult--and how irrelevant. You present a fallacious argumentum ad populum. That millions have wanted to know, or purported to know, the origins of the cosmos does not constitute evidence that a single one of them ever needed to have such answers. There is of course superstitious fear--is that the basis of the theism which you purport to be so essential?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 05:17 pm
Setanta wrote:

There is nothing deceptive or "unscientific" about pointing out that an examination of the physical characteristics of the cosmos requires no reference to cosmic origins. Nor do you provide any disputation of that assertion.
Depends on what you mean by "requires". Certainly the application of scientific theory to the physical understanding of the cosmos requires no specific reference to origins. However the theory itself does indeed depend on it.

Quote:
How silly you are with your attempts to insult--and how irrelevant. You present a fallacious argumentum ad populum. That millions have wanted to know, or purported to know, the origins of the cosmos does not constitute evidence that a single one of them ever needed to have such answers. There is of course superstitious fear--is that the basis of the theism which you purport to be so essential?
No attempt to insult at all.

What do you mean by "need"? My reference to large numbers of people and persistent trends in their behavior went directly to the proposition you put forward - namely that no one "needs" it. My statement was not a sylogism, but rather the observation that many people act as though they do indeed have such a need. This is an observation that your proposition is often false in regards to the connection between need and action - not a logical refutation.

I made no particular judgement about what may be behind your asserted lack of need, but suggested some likely possibilities.
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Jason Proudmoore
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 06:03 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:




Quote:
Jason, I am afraid I don't understand what you mean by leave it the way it is? Leave what the way it is? I will come back to this once I understand what you mean. I hope that is ok.


Why Did God "hardened" the pharaoh's heart? Was this necessary? Why not leave it the way it is, without controlling the pharaoh's will against letting "Moses's] people go"?


Quote:
I realize what many people say, Jason. Just because they say it doesn't make it right. Just because I say it doesn't make it right. It is either right or it is wrong. What matters is what you believe.


My point exactly, MA


Quote:
Why didn't He? I think He didn't make us zombies because He does love us and wanted us to have some freedom and to think for ourselves. What good is love if it is forced? You cannot make anyone love you. God does not make someone love Him. You either do or you don't. No, I do not believe God wanted to create a complex plot....for his own entertainment. Was it necessary? Obviously, God thinks so. Whose mind has He controlled, Jason? Do you have scripture for that?


But why does He want us to think for ourselves? Being zombies are capable to love as well, given God's touch that is. Yeah, what good is love if it is forced? Tell me that. You can make people love you (if you are God of course) anything can happen. You either love him or don't? God loves us all, and if we don't believe in Him, we will burn in Hell for all eternity. Love? What is love to you, MA, to God?
Quote:
Again, what good would love be if you had to make someone love you? What kind of love is that? God wants us to love Him because we want to love Him.[/b][/color]


"What good would love be if you had to make someone love you"? I think that it would be the ideal thing if love is what you're looking for. "God wants us to love Him because we want to love Him." Don't you think you are over generalizing a little, MA? Some of us don't believe in God.


Quote:
Jason, God created Adam and Eve. Why shouldn't they trust Him?



Does this make any sense to you, MA? What difference does it make if God created Adam and Eve if they don't know what is right and what is wrong? How can anybody, let alone Adam and Eve to trust just God? Were they taught what was right and what was wrong? How can you be so sure? I have to be taught what is right and what is wrong in order to distinguish the difference between the two.
He told them what was right and wrong. He said don't and they did.

How can that possibly be a lesson in Righteousness, MA?

Quote:
Their choice. Well, my mom used to tell me when I asked her "Why?" She said, "because I'm the mom and I said so." Well, when I was very young that was good enough for me. I learned later in life that when she set up rules she did it because she loved me and wanted me to know right from wrong. Impossible to grasp? Not really. Jason, it takes a leap of faith. That's what it took for me. I had to trust God. I do trust God.[/b][/color]


But your mother knew that you didn't know what was right and what was wrong, that you were innocent. She didn't punish you a whole eternity in suffering and pain for just one disobedience. She forgave you, was patient with you. She loved you. You learned later in life that your mother imposed those rules because she loved you, gave you a reason for the punishment. [Now], can you tell me why was it considered wrong for Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree, MA? Be at least a little bit reasonable.


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People like me? What do you mean people like me?


People like you who have the same ideals and use it to try to hurt people with their religious beliefs.
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Jason, I will tell you just like I tell everyone else. And I mean this with the utmost respect, you have the exact same rights under the Constitution as I do.


I agree with you.

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You vote for what you think is right. I vote for what I think is right. If I vote for what I think is wrong then I am going against what I believe and I will not do that.


You are right.

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I will not apologize for it. I am not ashamed of it. If these issues are brought up on the voting ballot then it becomes my business just as it becomes everyone else's.


I'm not expecting an apology from you, MA, nor should you.

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I then have a choice. I vote yes because I think it's right. I vote no because I don't think it's right.


You are right. But I personally wouldn't vote. I don't get into people's business.

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That's just the way it is. I realize that because many of ethics, principles, and morals are based in my religion many find that offensive and imposing.


I agree with that.

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I am sorry if they do. I do not question what they base their ethics, principles, and morals on when they vote so they have no right to question mine either.[/b][/color]


I believe that doing the right thing is to not hurt people physically, emotionally, or humiliate them. And I think this also applies to you, too, MA.

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I am sorry, Jason, but I believe the life of a child is a lot more important than somebody's confidence.


Me too. I think that the life of a child is very important. A woman should have the right to do what she wants with her body.

Quote:
If they were not confident enough in the first place then they shouldn't have gotten pregnant.


But they did get pregnant, MA.

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I am not speaking of every woman that gets an abortion mind you.
I


But you are speaking about them, MA. The law that you are so fond of would also apply to them, too.

Quote:
speak of the ones that use it as birth control or call the pregnancy inconvenient. How sad that a life is inconvenient to anyone.[/b][/color]


A woman does what she wants with her body. She can decide what to do if she doesn't want to have a baby. Nobody's business.
Momma Angel Wrote:

Quote:
I didn't approve of them before I became a Christian so I don't know what to make of that other than the fact I have just always felt they were wrong.

Didn't you think before you were Christian that you should've mind your own business?

Quote:
No, I did not belong to any religious group.


I guessed that one right!!!

Quote:
The thought of two men or two women together having sex doesn't appeal to me whatsoever. I believe it is wrong. I have always believed it is wrong. But, that does not mean that I hurt anyone because they choose to live their life that way.


But you do hurt them, MA if you are one of those people. There are people who are not very tolerant of others. If you taught those people (told them that homosexuality is wrong), they would do anything to keep it right. They would even use violence to accomplish that.
And I mind my own business, and so should you.


Quote:
I can't prohibit them from doing anything. I don't get to vote on whether they get married or not so how can I hurt them?


Maybe not you, but others who think like you. People influence people, MA.

Quote:
By having a discussion on a public forum with countless other people? Well, if that hurts them then I would say they are in for a pretty rough road because this is most assuredly mild compared to some of the things I am sure they have to (unnecessarily IMO) deal with.[/b][/color]


I agree with you.

Quote:
If you feel that it's your wife's and your wife's choice alone to decide whether she has a baby or not that's right, that's your business. It becomes my business when it comes up for public vote, as I am part of the public. And again, I will vote yes if I think it's right and no if I think it's wrong.


I still think that a woman has the right to have a baby if she wants to. Abortion is legal in the US, and there are people who don't agree with it. And there are others who would do anything (even violence) to stop these procedures.

Quote:
So now, let me ask you this: Are you demonstrating hate towards me because of my beliefs because I don't think these things are ok?


No

Quote:
Are you demonstrating hate towards me because you are telling me what you think is right and what is wrong?


No

Quote:
I don't think so. I think you are just telling me what you think, feel, and believe.


You are right, once again.

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Now, if you came to my house and beat me up or toilet papered my yard, etc., yeah, that could be construed as hate.


Agree

Quote:
But because you are exchanging your ideas with me in a civil manner I should consider it hate?


No


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Jason, it is what people do that defines them?


Yes. Believe it or not.

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Jason, I have two lesbian friends. Wonderful friends. They are lesbian. So what? I should discount everything else about them and hate them because they do one thing I disagree with?


Some people would hate them. Do you hate your friends, MA? Do want your friends to be happy? If you love your friends, you will let them be happy with what they do. But if you say that you love your friends and don't let them be happy, you are a Hypocrite. It is what people do that defines them.

Quote:
You think they should hate me or discount everything else about me because I do something that they don't like?


They are your friends, MA. It Depends if that "something" interfere with their happiness. You are happy with what you do. If you are happy with what you do, and they aren't happy with what they do because you are part of their unhappiness, they have the right to hate you. Simple.

Quote:
If this were true, Jason, I'd say we all would hate each other because there is something about everyone of us in the world that I am sure someone does not like.[/b][/color]


Not "all would hate each other," but a lot of people would dislike quite a few. We don't know everybody's feelings, MA.

Quote:
Jason, I am not teaching anyone to be anything. I am doing the same thing you are doing; having a discussion on a public forum about issues that interest me.


I don't disagree with you, sweet MA. There are people who think like you that would hurt other people who think like me.

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I do not stand on corners with signs or bomb abortion clinics, etc.


I didn't think you do, but some people do.

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I am a 50 year old housewife who runs a homeless cat shelter and loves having the computer because I can talk to other people. I am pretty much homebound with my cat shelter and where I live. You are giving me way too much credit.[/b][/color]


I'm very happy for you and the the cats. Hope everything goes well.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 06:22 pm
I'll be getting muscles on my scrolling finger if this carries on.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 06:55 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The desire to know the nature of the universe in no way validates an explanation advances without evidence that it is the correct explanation.


If you use the term in reference to "validation" in the scientific sense, then I quite agree. Indeed the belief in or assumption of the existence of a creator is just that -- a belief and an assumption. I certainly do not offer it as, or consider it to be, a scientific observation or deduction.

As an "explanation" it satisfies me in terms of my own spiritual and intellectual life. That does not preclude me from revising my assessment or explanation in the very unlikely event that significant new information should arise.

Alterenatively, one could go forward with no assumptiuon and no explanation. I have no quarrel with that position. Many here appear to me to argue that the idea of a creator is somehow absurd. In the absence of an alternative explanation for our origins on their part, I note that this position is just as arbitrary and unprovable as belief in a creator and, unlike it, still leaves no answer for the question of our origins. Which is more absurd?

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is unwarranted logically to accept an explanation for the origins and structure of the universe without evidence that it is so, and that is all that I am saying. People would call me a fool if I went around telling people that the world was created as a joke by magical mice, and there is no more evidence for an omnipotent being than for that.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 06:57 pm
spendius wrote:
Quote:
None of this is evidence that a God exists. You're just playing games.


I thought I had said you were and provided an argument to prove it.

If you have a scrap of evidence that a God exists, share it with us.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 07:10 pm
I used to have visitations from a mysterious being I couldn't understand who just had to be obeyed.
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Mahealani
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 07:24 pm
Momma, before I attempt to answer your question, could you please tell me in your own words just exactly what or who is this "God of the Bible" you are referring to?
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jan, 2006 10:15 pm
Momma Angel wrote:

Again, what good would love be if you had to make someone love you? What kind of love is that? God wants us to love Him because we want to love Him .


I dunno. What happens when you don't find him very loveable?
P
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