Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

Unlike Intrepid's self-serving comment, the evidence is that it's simple-minded.

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VERY nice analogy, Eorl.

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Momma wrote:

I am distressed because you are angry. Phoenix, who are you angry at? Are you angry at God or are you angry at those that take the Word of God and twist it to justify their behavior? I will definitely admit there are those that twist the word of God to justify anything they want to justify. I have seen believer and non-believer alike do this. I believe this is the very reason that God says we are to let His word stand as an answer.

This has nothing to do with our relationship. I believe that we both know where we are coming from, and respect our right to have those differences.

As far as "being angry with God", it is impossible for me to be angry with someone with whom I have no idea whether he exists or not. I don't believe that the bible is the "word of God".

Yes, I think that people of religion have taken this book and twisted it for their own purposes. I also think that those who do not believe have taken the book, and used the inaccuracies and contradictions as evidence that this God was a complete monster. Actually, using the words ascribed to God as proof of the malevolence of God IMO, is as naive as asserting that the words of the bible actually do come from some God.

One cannot disprove "the word of God" when one does not even know that a God exists. One cannot reasonably call God a monster, if one does not know if that entity is actually in existence.

If I started a thread that evinced the notion that I thought Hannibal Lechter was the worst person on earth, people would think that I was nuts. If I also asserted that I based my opinion on what he said about such and such, people would also think that I was out of my gourd.

Yet, people on A2K are constantly quoting this so-called "word of God", as depicted in the bible, to back up their assertions.

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Wolf_O'Donnell,

I guess that depends on whether you believe God sent Katrina to destroy New Orleans or not, wouldn't it?

Phoenix,

I realize it had nothing to do with our relationship. I was distressed because you are my friend, and I care about how you feel. That is what I meant.

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Momma wrote:

I am distressed because you are angry. Phoenix, who are you angry at? Are you angry at God or are you angry at those that take the Word of God and twist it to justify their behavior? I will definitely admit there are those that twist the word of God to justify anything they want to justify. I have seen believer and non-believer alike do this. I believe this is the very reason that God says we are to let His word stand as an answer.

Momma Angel, this is a fine example of your approach-- You fail to answer the most rudimentary, well-reasoned questions posed my a number of people in this forum, but what you sieze upon is this pseudo-psycho babble approach. Very manipulative stuff.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I see from your answer you also are one that seems to require evidence in order to believe in God. This is the very thing that I am trying to get at. Maybe you can answer it for me, Thomas. What is it in you that makes you require that evidence?

Two reasons: 1) Occam's razor. The assumption that the god of the bible is real does not add anything to my understanding of the world, so I don't make it in order to economize on my brain. 2) Initial evidence against the assumption. As I said, I have learned from experience that stories tend to be wrong when they sound good and are hard to fact-check. Stories about god have both characteristics, so my presumtion is that they are false, until I have evidence to change my mind.

Momma Angel wrote:

I am not sure why you put (selected parts of) the Bible like that because I believe the whole Bible. I believe I have a fairly good understanding of the flow of the Old Testament to the New Testament.

In one of those threads where we discussed homosexuality, you have made it pretty clear that you don't think Christians are bound by Old-Testament rules the prohibition of shellfish or the stoning of unfaithful wives. Technically, you said, you are not even bound by the ten commandmends, and the only reason they bind you in practice is because the Evangelists and Paul have reaffirmed them in the New Testament. But according to Leviticus and friends, it's pretty clear that the laws there are coming directly from god. Jesus never says he is overriding his father's explicit wishes, and Paul surely wouldn't have the authority to change the laws of god.

Therefore, since you don't believe in Old Testament law, I must conclude that you don't believe these laws derive from god -- contrary to what the Old Testament says.

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Cliff Hanger wrote:

Momma wrote:
I am distressed because you are angry. Phoenix, who are you angry at? Are you angry at God or are you angry at those that take the Word of God and twist it to justify their behavior? I will definitely admit there are those that twist the word of God to justify anything they want to justify. I have seen believer and non-believer alike do this. I believe this is the very reason that God says we are to let His word stand as an answer.

Momma Angel, this is a fine example of your approach-- You fail to answer the most rudimentary, well-reasoned questions posed my a number of people in this forum, but what you sieze upon is this pseudo-psycho babble approach. Very manipulative stuff.

Cliff Hanger,

And to everyone else that has posted in this thread: If I have failed to answer any of your questions to your satisfaction, please let me know. I have attempted to do so but am willing to address anything I may have missed.

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Quote:

Momma Angel wrote:
I see from your answer you also are one that seems to require evidence in order to believe in God. This is the very thing that I am trying to get at. Maybe you can answer it for me, Thomas. What is it in you that makes you require that evidence?

Thomas Wrote:

Quote:

Two reasons: 1) Occam's razor. The assumption that the god of the bible is real does not add anything to my understanding of the world, so I don't make it in order to economize on my brain. 2) Initial evidence against the assumption. As I said, I have learned from experience that stories tend to be wrong when they sound good and are hard to fact-check. Stories about god have both characteristics, so my presumtion is that they are false, until I have evidence to change my mind.

Thomas,

Thank you for your answer. I need to do some studying on Occam's razor. I need to get a good understanding of it before I can address it.

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Momma Angel wrote:
I am not sure why you put (selected parts of) the Bible like that because I believe the whole Bible. I believe I have a fairly good understanding of the flow of the Old Testament to the New Testament.

Thomas Wrote:

Quote:

In one of those threads where we discussed homosexuality, you have made it pretty clear that you don't think Christians are bound by Old-Testament rules the prohibition of shellfish or the stoning of unfaithful wives. Technically, you said, you are not even bound by the ten commandmends, and the only reason they bind you in practice is because the Evangelists and Paul have reaffirmed them in the New Testament. But according to Leviticus and friends, it's pretty clear that the laws there are coming directly from god. Jesus never says he is overriding his father's explicit wishes, and Paul surely wouldn't have the authority to change the laws of god.

Therefore, since you don't believe in Old Testament law, I must conclude that you don't believe these laws derive from god -- contrary to what the Old Testament says.

I never intended to imply, technically or otherwise, that we are not bound by the Ten Commandments. I believe we are. There is much controversary within the Christian religion about the Mosaic laws, admittedly. I have posted a link in other threads about the Mosaic Laws and the ones we are bound by and why. I will have to find that particular link again, as it IMO explains it quite well. So, let me find that and I will post it again. Then, maybe you can ask specific questions about specific things? Would that be okay with you?

Thomas,

I found it! Maybe this will help.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/otlaw.html

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Quote:

I have posted a link in other threads about the Mosaic Laws and the ones we are bound by and why.

Momma- I am not all that interested in links that describe why Christians support such and such. I want to know what YOU think!

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Wait a minute, what was the title of this thread again? Exactly why don't you believe in the God of the Bible. It's necessary to examine first the aspects of that subject as revealed or exposed in the text of the book in question, isn't it?

Quote:

One cannot disprove "the word of God" when one does not even know that a God exists. One cannot reasonably call God a monster, if one does not know if that entity is actually in existence.

I personally am not trying to disprove anything.
I am answering the question as asked.
Why don't I believe in the God of the Bible? Because, as previously stated, I have examined who this God is as revealed through the words of his own prophets and found him to be a lousy father. Some may not like the word monster, but in the book in question there is no doubt that his actions are monsteresque.. How about thug?

Now come Intrepid and MA to tell us that God can be jealous and full of rage, but that God's jealousy is okay, for us it's one of the seven deadly sins, but for GOD vicious envy is okie-dokie. And God's wrath is a special kind of good wrath apparently, not the bad human wrath we are more familiar with and that I am filled with when this jealous, vengeful thing can walk away from his children and be allowed to get away with it because God is just one wild and crazy guy.

MA writes:

Quote:

If you decide to turn from God, why would you expect Him to not turn away from you?

Is that how a good Father would treat his children? Ask yourself that. Where is the love of God in that behavior? Does the Hound of Heaven just stop watching after the lilies of the field and the birds of air? What kind of Father is this that you would have us follow? The Father in the text is not someone I would want looking after my children when I am away.

We can go on from here and discuss whether or not a supernatural entity exists, but first we must answer the question the thread asked. I'd be interested in knowing how else, what other sources could be used to do so.

Joe(thanks for listening.)Nation

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Joe(thanks for listening.)Nation - I hear what you are saying, and from your point of view, what has been asked is certainly a reasonable question. The problem is, that the deeper that we get into the minutia of the bible, the farther that we get away from the more basic question, which is:

If we don't know that there is a God, we have no reason to believe that he wrote anything. Moving along, what exactly is the point of picking out the obvious contradictions and inconsistensies in the book, since if a God did not write (or inspire) a book, the book is no more or less credible than any other book either of fiction, or non-fiction, written by any other human?

The only benefit that I could see by pointing out the inanities that are found in the bible, is that people might have a better concept at just what it was that they are basing their lives.

Another point. Even if the bible were consistent, and contained no inaccuracies or contradictions that either scholars or just us plain folk could discern, that in itself would STILL not offer any greater proof that it was a God who wrote the book.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Thomas,

I found it! Maybe this will help.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/otlaw.html

Well, in the light of your own source, here is a specific question that comes to mind: Is Mosaic Law still binding on you or not? The source you cite does not reflect disagreements among Christians about the Bible: It proves inconsistencies within the Bible itself. You say you believe all of the Bible, so you must be believing mutually exclusive statements: That the Mosaic laws still bind under the New Testament, and that they don't.

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[/

Quote:

Cliff Hanger,

And to everyone else that has posted in this thread: If I have failed to answer any of your questions to your satisfaction, please let me know. I have attempted to do so but am willing to address anything I may have missed.

Now you're playing just plain dumb. People have been asking you to answer these questions again and again-- You must love the attention. I'm going to leave fairly soon because I find this to be tedious, self-congratulatory.

And one more thing, letting JC or your God or your Bible interpret everything you ought to do means you don't have to think for yourself.

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Joe Nation Wrote:

Quote:

Wait a minute, what was the title of this thread again? Exactly why don't you believe in the God of the Bible. It's necessary to examine first the aspects of that subject as revealed or exposed in the text of the book in question, isn't it?

Quote:
One cannot disprove "the word of God" when one does not even know that a God exists. One cannot reasonably call God a monster, if one does not know if that entity is actually in existence.

I personally am not trying to disprove anything.
I am answering the question as asked.
Why don't I believe in the God of the Bible? Because, as previously stated, I have examined who this God is as revealed through the words of his own prophets and found him to be a lousy father. Some may not like the word monster, but in the book in question there is no doubt that his actions are monsteresque.. How about thug?

Now come Intrepid and MA to tell us that God can be jealous and full of rage, but that God's jealousy is okay, for us it's one of the seven deadly sins, but for GOD vicious envy is okie-dokie. And God's wrath is a special kind of good wrath apparently, not the bad human wrath we are more familiar with and that I am filled with when this jealous, vengeful thing can walk away from his children and be allowed to get away with it because God is just one wild and crazy guy.

Joe, please do not think that I do not understand the questions you have about this issue. I do understand them. In the light that you portray them, yes, I certainly understand it. We have a different perspective of God so we are definitely going to see Him in a different light.

I see God as a just God. You do not. I understand that. Joe, God only turns away from us when we have hardened our hearts against Him and we will not turn back to Him. As long as there is a chance that we will turn back to Him He will not leave us. Has there never been anyone in your life that you cared for but was so against you no matter what that you just had to let them go? Does this mean you don't care about them anymore? I don't think so. I think God hurts over those that would leave Him, but He concentrates on those that don't leave Him. To me, that makes perfect sense.[/b]

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MA writes:

Quote:
If you decide to turn from God, why would you expect Him to not turn away from you?

Joe Nation Wrote:

Is that how a good Father would treat his children? Ask yourself that. Where is the love of God in that behavior? Does the Hound of Heaven just stop watching after the lilies of the field and the birds of air? What kind of Father is this that you would have us follow? The Father in the text is not someone I would want looking after my children when I am away.

We can go on from here and discuss whether or not a supernatural entity exists, but first we must answer the question the thread asked. I'd be interested in knowing how else, what other sources could be used to do so.

I have used this analogy before Joe, maybe it will help, maybe not. When someone is addicted to drugs or alcohol and someone constantly fixes all the messes they get themselves into because of the drugs or alcohol is that loving? No, it is not. It is not because that is enabling them to stay in their addiction and destructive behavior. This is much like what God does. He lets us suffer the consequences of our actions so that we can see what we are doing and realize we must change our behavior. I don't believe that God actually gets pleasure out of punishing anyone. I guess some people believe He does. I am grateful whenever I learn anything, no matter how painful that lesson is. Once I learn something, I can look back on the entire situation and realize that is what it took for me to learn it. Do you think if God just tapped us on the shoulder and said, "Uh, excuse me, but do you think you should be doing that? I don't, so please don't do it." it would actually do any good? Do you really think that anyone would listen to that? Just look at how upset, and understandably so, some say that Christians hate because some say, "You are going to hell!" Oh yeah, that's the way to do it. Scare them right into hell because you put this picture of a mean and evil God in there. Man has to have the whole picture painted for him. Look at all those that want evidence. Well, telling someone "You are going to hell!" and leaving it at that is only evidence of hate. It is not the full evidence of what God is about.

Mankind looks at things through the eyes and understanding of man, Joe Nation. God's ways are higher than ours. We can understand some of it and some of it I highly doubt we will ever understand. That is where the faith comes in. I trust God. I trust Him to do the right and just thing.

I do understand your questions. I completely understand. Don't you think I may have had some of these questions myself at times? Yes, I have. As a human being it seems pretty bad that a whole nation gets wiped out; men, women, and even the children. But, then I have to remember that God knew their hearts. God knew the way they would be when they grew up. I don't.

And this is one of the reasons I get so upset at the Christians that will call other people demons and tell them they have no fruits or the truth is not in them. That may be their individual perception, but only God truly knows what is in the hearts of all of us. I hope this answered some of what you asked. If it didn't, please let me know and I will do my best to answer.

Joe(thanks for listening.)Nation

My pleasure!

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One more thing-- your overuse of smileys or whatever those faces are is condescending and superficial-- get to the point Momma Angel.

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Thomas Wrote:

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Well, in the light of your own source, here is a specific question that comes to mind: Is Mosaic Law still binding on you or not? The source you cite does not reflect disagreements among Christians about the Bible: It proves inconsistencies within the Bible itself. You say you believe all of the Bible, so you must be believing mutually exclusive statements: That the Mosaic laws still bind under the New Testament, and that they don't.

No, Thomas. I do not believe I am under the old Mosaic Laws. I believe those laws were done away with because of the New Covenant with Christ.

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But then...

<steps aside, lets Thomas have the honors since he set that one up so well>

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Cliff Hanger Wrote:

Quote:

Now you're playing just plain dumb. People have been asking you to answer these questions again and again-- You must love the attention. I'm going to leave fairly soon because I find this to be tedious, self-congratulatory.

And one more thing, letting JC or your God or your Bible interpret everything you ought to do means you don't have to think for yourself.

I am not playing just plain dumb. If you thought I was not answering questions fully I thought maybe someone else might have had that same thought. Since I want to answer the questions in my effort to gain a better understanding I was attempting to correct a possible mistake.

Cliff Hanger, I don't know what your problem is with me, but you obviously have one. I am sorry for whatever it is. I do think for myself. I ask questions about the things I don't know. If I ever get to the point that I think I have all the answers then I can learn nothing.

Cliff Hanger Wrote:

Quote:

One more thing-- your overuse of smileys or whatever those faces are is condescending and superficial-- get to the point Momma Angel.

It is very obvious you don't know me much at all. Trust me, I am not overusing the Smileys. Ask anyone, they will tell you. I definitely have overused them in the past, but I am not doing it now. :wink:

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Momma Angel wrote:

Actually, Brandon I do. But, you have to die before you get to it. :wink:

What is this, Brandon? You just want me to say you are right and I am wrong? Is that what you are after?

So, then, my initial statement that you have an imaginary friend, and that you believe that you won't really die (semantics aside) was perfectly correct. As I said, this can hardly be called facing the harsh realities of life.

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Brandon,

Reality: I am going to die. My physical body will someday die. That's reality. I accept it. That's just the way it is.

If, because I believe in a spiritual afterlife, you think I am not facing the harsh realities of life, so be it. You are more than entitled to what you believe, think, etc. It doesn't change me in any way.

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Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

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