Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

To follow up on the whole evidence thing:

Momma Angel, if you say "I believe in God", that's pretty much irrefutable. It's a matter of faith, evidence doesn't really come into it. You believe in God, others don't, that's that.

However, when you start making specific assertions, that's when evidence DOES come into it. This whole latest direction started with this:

Momma Angel wrote:

Pauligirl,

Like I said, perhaps you should do some research into slavery in the New Testament. Slaves were treated like family and often were adopted into families. I probably didn't make that distinction clear enough. But slavery in the states was nothing like slavery in the New Testament. I can look up some stuff for you if you'd like.

If you would care to, I'd like to discuss some of this with you. If you can tell me what you mean by picking out bits and pieces specifically, I will do my best to address them as they relate to me.[/b]

That's a pretty specific assertion (the part I italicized). You are stating that there was a qualitative difference between slavery in the States and slavery in the Old Testament, with a heavy implication that things were way better for those Old Testament slaves -- they were treated like family, after all. You go on to say that you'll look things up to support that assertion, and then you post a few things about slavery in the Old Testament -- but then you backtrack and say it's not evidence?

The difference here are specific, supportable assertions vs. non-specific, non-supportable assertions. "I believe in God" is a non-specific, non-supportable assertion -- you've owned that fact, to your credit, and it's not really much fodder for argument if all you're claiming is that YOU believe in God, end of story.

It's much different if you're claiming that there was a qualitative difference between slavery in the US vs. slavery in the Old Testament. That's specific and supportable -- and you've failed to support it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Pauligirl,

Like I said, perhaps you should do some research into slavery in the New Testament. Slaves were treated like family and often were adopted into families. I probably didn't make that distinction clear enough. But slavery in the states was nothing like slavery in the New Testament. I can look up some stuff for you if you'd like.

If you would care to, I'd like to discuss some of this with you. If you can tell me what you mean by picking out bits and pieces specifically, I will do my best to address them as they relate to me.

Ok, bits and pieces....like ignoring the Old Testament every time it is brought up by sliding in the "new covenant" thing. You did it here with slavery and stoning a disobedient son. I think Setanta has it right, that Paul (not God or Jesus) is the one that changed the laws. But that really doesn't matter. If you are a Christian, you cannot ignore the monster god of the OT. You cannot gloss over the things written, that he exterminated all life except for Noah and his boatload, that he killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lot and his lovely daughters and exterminated seven nations in widespread acts of genocide: the Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2: "... the seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them."
Joshua 6:21: "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Yeah, If I were a Christian, I'd probably want to ignore all that too. Doesn't match up too well with all that "god is love" sweetness and light, now does it?
P

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sozobe,

Thank you so much! I understand exactly what you are saying! I do appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me like that! Woo hoo! Now, I am learning. Thank you so much!

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Cool. ;-)

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Pauligirl,

I am not denying a single thing the Bible says God did in the Old Testament. Not one bit.

If I have one concept of God and you have another one then the way we view Him would probably be different, right? He, to me, is all knowing, all everything. The ultimate power there is. He is God. I am completely inferior to Him. I have tried to explain this before but it is not easy to do but I will try again.

God is so pure and so far on one end of the spectrum and man is completely at the other end. So, I imagine anything against God is pretty horrific in His eyes. I do not know if God views sins having different levels or not. I know man does. But, if God sees them all as equal then His punishment is also equal. Yes, He wiped out the ones that were wicked and against Him. Not denying it one little bit. Do I understand it completely? No, as a human being I do not. But, I don't think like God. I can't comprehend how high His level of thinking is.

So, since I believe He is a just God then I accept that the punishments He put forth were just because He is a just God. It's hard for me as a human to understand His thinking and reasoning, so I have to go on my faith in Him and trust Him and I do.

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georgeob1 wrote:

However, it still may be reasonable and prudent behavior for some to accept such an explanation. Consider, for example Pascal's Wager.

If you could conclusively offer a provable explanation for our origin and existence, and that of the universe as an alternative to such "superstition", then I would join you in your criticism. However, you cannot do so.

Why would anybody consider Pascal's Wager?

You can't sincerely believe something just to "be on the safe side." Without the sincerity, you are just a hypocrite. If there is a god, which do you think he/she/it would prefer? Honest disbelief, or hypocritical belief? And which god you pick? To be really safe, you'd have to believe in them all. Christian or a Moslem? A Zoroastrian or a Hindu? If you choose Christianity, what flavor? If you are Methodist, how about the possibility that Catholicism may be the true religion? To really be on the safe side, you'd have to become a believer in all religions in the world, and this would be utterly impossible, since many religions forbid beliefs in others.

So, all things considered, I have a 50/50 chance of being right-god vs no god. You, on the other hand have a ...somebody help me out here..how many gods are there? Well, ok, lets say a thousand, that's a nice round number. So you have 999 chances of being wrong. So, I'll keep my 50/50 and raise ya two small gods.
P

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Pauligirl, have I welcomed you yet? If not, nice to have you here!

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sozobe wrote:

Pauligirl, have I welcomed you yet? If not, nice to have you here!

Well, thank you! If I get outta hand, just smack me. :wink:
P

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Christians Push Religion on Others
Howdy Cliff Hanger,
Your right! The word in question should read "believers," sorry for the typo.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Pauligirl,

I am not denying a single thing the Bible says God did in the Old Testament. Not one bit.

If I have one concept of God and you have another one then the way we view Him would probably be different, right? He, to me, is all knowing, all everything. The ultimate power there is. He is God. I am completely inferior to Him. I have tried to explain this before but it is not easy to do but I will try again.

God is so pure and so far on one end of the spectrum and man is completely at the other end. So, I imagine anything against God is pretty horrific in His eyes. I do not know if God views sins having different levels or not. I know man does. But, if God sees them all as equal then His punishment is also equal. Yes, He wiped out the ones that were wicked and against Him. Not denying it one little bit. Do I understand it completely? No, as a human being I do not. But, I don't think like God. I can't comprehend how high His level of thinking is.

So, since I believe He is a just God then I accept that the punishments He put forth were just because He is a just God. It's hard for me as a human to understand His thinking and reasoning, so I have to go on my faith in Him and trust Him and I do.

I didn't say you denied it, I said you ignored it. You try to just pass it by.
As for the god of the bible being pure....well, he has all the bad (human)attributes of a temper-tantrum throwing teenager.

Deuteronomy 6:15 For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth
Nahum 1:2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.
Exodus 34:14.For the Lord, whose name is jealous, is a jealous God

He lies, too.
P

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He lies? Care to share?

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Momma Angel wrote:

He lies? Care to share?

Somehow, I knew you'd ask....

Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel..."

II Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Oh, and he tells Samuel to deceive Saul (1 Sam. 16:2). "And the Lord said unto Samuel, . . . fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it he will kill me. And the Lord said, Take a heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the Lord."

P

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Pauligirl,

I will have to do some research on this and get the whole story. I will be back. Thank you for answering me.

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Pauligirl wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
He lies? Care to share?

Somehow, I knew you'd ask....

Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel..."

II Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Oh, and he tells Samuel to deceive Saul (1 Sam. 16:2). "And the Lord said unto Samuel, . . . fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it he will kill me. And the Lord said, Take a heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the Lord."

P

If you are going to quote, at least quote the entire verse to keep it in context.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

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Deuteronomy 6:15 For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth
Nahum 1:2 The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.
Exodus 34:14.For the Lord, whose name is jealous, is a jealous God

How do they ever get a grownup to worship such a beast? I can understand a child being scared into behaving, lest the Big Holy smite them down, but an adult ought to have the sense to choose to whom she offers her love. To this? A jealous and avenging.... sounds a lot like someone's wigged out ex-husband and a Person one needs to avoid.

Joe(After he smites then he shares the love, right?)Nation

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Intrepid wrote:

Pauligirl wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
He lies? Care to share?

Somehow, I knew you'd ask....

Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel..."

II Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

Oh, and he tells Samuel to deceive Saul (1 Sam. 16:2). "And the Lord said unto Samuel, . . . fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons. And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it he will kill me. And the Lord said, Take a heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the Lord."

P

If you are going to quote, at least quote the entire verse to keep it in context.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

And exactly how does that change "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" ?
P

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Pauligirl,

In Ezekiel 14:9 - It is translated as " If they be enticed to utter prophecy." God was weeding out the false prophets and the people that were following them.

I will let Intrepid answer you on the II Thessolonians scripture since he has already started it.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Pauligirl,

In Ezekiel 14:9 - It is translated as " If they be enticed to utter prophecy." God was weeding out the false prophets and the people that were following them.

I will let Intrepid answer you on the II Thessolonians scripture since he has already started it.

I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

I'd say that's pretty clear.

P

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So, you don't think the words being translated from Hebrew to Greek, etc., have anything to do with anything?

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Momma Angel wrote:

So, you don't think the words being translated from Hebrew to Greek, etc., have anything to do with anything?

Not when it's used to soften the blow.
The King James version is what I have and use.
P

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Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

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