Exactly Why Don't You Believe In the God of the Bible?

Setanta wrote:

Sorry about that Dys, which is not to say that i consider you to have a world view which is internally, logically consistent.

Whew

I know I am not deluded. I know God works in my life.

Wolf_O'Donnell Wrote:

Quote:

This begs the question of why you started this topic in the first place. If you cannot provide any proof for your belief and ask us not to expect any proof, then why must you hold us to the same standard for the opposing belief (of there being no God)?

I'm not really sure what you mean, Wolf. I started this thread because I was obviously not understanding those that don't believe in God. I was missing something in the communication with them and I felt it was causing problems. I thought maybe if I understood more of how someone feels that does not believe then maybe I could better communicate with them.

I really am trying to explain it the best I can, Wolf. The biggest problem I seem to have is getting past the faith vs. reason part. I'm not sure how to reconcile this and put it into words that others know what I mean. But, I am working on it.

Then why give us free will? I think He did that because He does love us. Look how upset so many get now just at the thought of someone not wanting someone to have the choice of abortion or same sex marriage. Can you imagine how much more so it would be if God made us puppets with no decision making for ourselves at all?

http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm

First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand.

In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).

Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God's will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.

God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).

Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life.

In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.

A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust.

God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering?

So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it.

We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not.

Hatred and bigotry in someone's heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought.

Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man's free will.

Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.

God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.

One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).

Suffering is the result of human sin.

Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others?

It is because sin is in the world.

But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering. "

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

Nimh Wrote:

Quote:

Why Don't I Believe In the God of the Bible? What a weird question. Why would I believe in the God of the Bible? I don't see any reason why I would or should. Never have.

Weird question? Wow. You are the first one that has said that. Don't quite know what to make of that, Nimh. You were never curious when you heard about God?

Don't you ever wonder where things started? Do you think science answers all the questions that you might have?

You don't see any reason (?) for a power greater than man?[/b][/color]

Jason,

Thank you for answering me. Yours is going to take a bit of time for me to address. I just wanted you to know that I am working on it. Thanx again!

Hmmm. I had to really think on this. What I mean is if I could actually get you to feel what I feel when I am explaining it, perhaps it would be easier for you to understand.

I don't believe in bashing anyone over the head and scaring them into heaven. That is not the way it works! Maybe I try too hard to be the opposite of that, I don't know.

let me give my own take on this, sweet MA.

Momma Angel wrote:

Then why give us free will? I think He did that because He does love us. Look how upset so many get now just at the thought of someone not wanting someone to have the choice of abortion or same sex marriage. Can you imagine how much more so it would be if God made us puppets with no decision making for ourselves at all?

http://www.carm.org/questions/suffering.htm


The god of the Bible, however, has infringed our "own right" to free will whe he is presented as manipulative. That's the same question I ask myself, why did the god of the Bible grant us free will? There are so many opinions to this, and not a single logical one. I think that If he would've "made us puppets," he would've accomplished his ultimate goal (whatever it is that we could've done without this free will). This free will thing has been more problematic than anything else. And the reason why a lot of people don't aprove of homosexuality and abortion is because these people have created a world of moral fantasies in their brains that results in hatred and prejudice toward those individuals who put them into practice. Such "moral" ideal is too dangerous for humanity.

God has infringed on our own right to free will? Where do you think we got that free will? It came from God. God created us. He is the potter and we are the clay, not the other way around. I guess God could have made us all like zombies that don't think and just walk around and do only what He wants us to do and not give us any freedom at all, but He didn't. He gave us the choice between what is right and what is wrong. Well, I don't approve of homosexuality and abortion because I believe it is against God's law. I didn't approve of them before I became a Christian so I don't know what to make of that other than the fact I have just always felt they were wrong. Jason, I don't hate someone because they are homosexual or because they had an abortion. I don't hate anybody. I may not like what they do but I sure don't hate them for it.



Quote:
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand.



Why is it so complicated to understand why God let evil to exist? If God explained to me, I think I would understand it. I don't think the reasons would be very complicated. We are capable to go to the moon, discover cures for so many diseases, split the atom, and so much, much more, and we can't understand a simple explanation from God himself, the god who can make us understand anything? Come on!
I think that the authors (while they were writing the Bible), didn't have any clue on how to justify the existence of evil logically, a very challenging issue, indeed.

No, we have big trouble understanding the simple things from God. We have trouble because we want what we want and we want it when we want it and we want it the way we want it. If we don't like something God says in the Bible, well somebody starts up another church with a different doctrine. It is man that has done this, not God. Why do we have to justify evil? It just is. There is evil and there is good and different things in-between. Why do we have to justify it?

Quote:
In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).

Does the Bible state why we have to "believe with our eyes closed," and why? Why is this too important to God? Is this truly a fact, that "the just shall live by faith,"? So, anybody who doesn't believe in God is considered unjust? Why?

Jason, what good would a God be if He had to prove Himself to His creation? Wouldn't that make His creation greater than Him? Too important to God? I don't know what you mean by too important so can you elaborate on that?

Quote:

Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God's will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.

Whether you believe in God or not doesn't necessarely protect you (or anybody) from "bad, harmful, painful, and [...] death."
I can be a pious man my entire life and know "bad, [harm], [pain], and death" from experience. God's utilizes evil in the most selfish, arrogant ways. Take Job's example, for instance; he endured one of the most painful tortures inflicted upon man, because God agrees to take place in a stupid wager with the devil. And the product of god's childish whim, to satisfy the devil's skepticism, shows how unjust He is. And this is just one example, mind you.

And I never said believing in God was going to bring you just good in life. Never even came close to making that statement. That was the Old Testament Jason. It was God and man then. With the coming of Christ we now have an intercessory. We don't have the punishment anymore. I can't say that I understand everything that God has done or does. I don't. I just know that He is a just God and He loves us.

Quote:
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).

"When Adam rebelled against God"? Adam nor Eve knew right from wrong; it wasn't their fault. The devil tricked them with lies. How could they possibly know the degree of importance of their obedience to God, or even better, know what a lie is?

But why not start the whole "experiment" all over? Why didn't God start from scratch, since the purpose of His creation was a failure when Adam and Eve disobeyed such silly rule? God allowed the devil to induce Eve into eating from THE THREE. God knew this (because He knows it all) and deliberately allowed the devil to continue this "evil" deed. Don't tell me that Adam and Eve knew right from wrong. That I don't buy. God didn't cut them any slack. God didn't like the flaw of His creation, and thus He decided to punish us all. This whole Adam and Eve metaphor is just the reflection of a jealous parent who doesn't want to see his children grow up.

Yes, they did know. God told them they could eat of every fruit in the garden but that one. Eve even told the devil that God said they were not to eat of it. So, yes, they knew. They knew God said not to do it and they did it anyway. This cannot be rationalized away by saying the devil tricked them. Sure he did. That's what he does. But God told them not to do it. God tells us in the Bible what we are not to do.


Quote:
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life.

But God seems to have abandoned us entirely. And Can you give me concrete explanation of this theory? I don't understand why Jesus's death accounts to "our salvation"? Has the world become a better place because of Jesus's death? Have we been forgiven? Are we innocent because of Jesus's death?

God has not abandoned us at all, Jason. It is we who abandon Him. Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for the forgiveness of our sins. God made a way possible for us to be reconciled with Him again. He is so pure and we are so NOT pure. But He sees us through His son now and He doesn't see those sins. If we ask Him, He forgives us. We will be judged innocent because of the blood of Christ shed for us. But, we will continue to sin as long as we are humans.

Quote:
In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.

Are you saying that Jesus wasn't the son of God, but he was God Himself all alone? If this is what you imply, it means that Jesus was praying and complaining to himself, not to his father in Heaven. How can this be? And another thing, I don't think that people who don't believe in God are evil. Also, lots of people who believe in God are capable of (or have done) evil.

The hardest to explain. Jesus was the Son of God. I believe in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. One God, three manifestations. God sent His son (born of woman) to die for us. He was praying to His father in Heaven. We are all capable of evil, Jason. Whether you believe in God or not, that's just the way that is. I would imagine that God sees any sin as evil because God is without sin. He's so pure and holy that if you looked on His face you would die. That is very hard to comprehend. I can't comprehend how pure that is, can you? So even a speck of dirt on something that clean and pure would defile it.


Quote:
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust.

Will we have a choice to say that the sentence was just or unjust? Why is this trial just?
Since the punishment is the same as the sinful action made by sinners (no matter the sin), an eternity in Hell is all they get. Raping a woman and lusting for a woman constitute to the same punishment...an eternity in Hell.Where is the justice in that? This is absurd

To you and I and probably ever other human being this may seem unjust. But, what if God sees all sin as having the same validity? What if telling a lie is the same as murder to God? Now, I don't know that is the way it is but I can accept it might be. Like I said as pure as He is anything against Him is going to be pretty bad. Absurd to the human mind, yes, but is it absurd to God? Obviously not.

Quote:
God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering?

Yes. Isn't that the ultimate goal, to stop evil and let good prevail?

God can do anything He wants to do. He is capable of anything. But, He gave us free will and He's not going to take that away from us. If He did, that would make Him a liar.

Quote:
So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it.

True

Actually, if we want God to stop evil and suffering then we need to start obeying His laws and stop doing whatever the heck we feel like doing.


Quote:
We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not.

Evil is evil because God lets evil exist.

Can't argue with you there but the decision lies with YOU as to whether you resist evil or not.

Quote:
Hatred and bigotry in someone's heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought.

Are you telling us that God created all the stars of the cosmos, billion of galaxies, lots of planets, everything we see and don't see, and He can't eliminate evil in us, that particular entity that is capable of harm? So, you are telling us that human beings can't exist without being evil? or is it that if this entity (evil) is taken from us, it means that we will stop having this "free will"? How can this be?

If God were to take away evil there would be no free will. What would you have to choose between? Man is incapable of being sin free. That's just the way it is. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We sin. It just is.


Quote:
Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man's free will.

But you are wrong, dead wrong. God has also chosen to manipulate people's mind in order to achieve His purpose. Nobody is able to have free will if the mind is controlled.

Ok, you are going to have to explain this one to me. I do not believe that God manipulate's anything. So, I will have to wait on your response to this one.


Quote:
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.

And I can present you many examples that contradict this premise.

Ok, please present me with some examples.


Quote:
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.

And those who don't listen to Him will pay dearly an eternity in HELL. Why is it that we need to believe in God? Why can't we just do the right thing (good deeds, not hurt people physically or emotionally)without believing in Him? It is extremely important to him (and selfish) to demand us to believe only in him with no logical explanation of His existence. And if We don't believe in Him, we surely go and spend an eternity (or possily two) in Hell. Is this just?

In a nutshell? Because that's the way God said it is to be. He created us. We did not create Him. He set up the rules and we are to obey them. It's just like a parent with a child. If you break the rules then you suffer the consequences. Why is it selfish for Him to want us to believe in Him and only Him? He CREATED US! He has every right to want that. You tell me, Jason, you obviously don't see it as just. I do. He is God. I am not.

Quote:
One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).

Are you telling us that God didn't forgive us all from the sin of Adam and Eve? Why are we all still sinners? Is an innocent child who dies a brutal death considered a sinner as well, or any child for that matter? Wasn't the child forgiven when Jesus died on the cross? Which one is it?

God does not condemn children that are not old enough to understand about Him and choose for Him. He does not just automatically throw children in hell because they haven't accepted Christ. That child has to understand what is going on. One thing that you might want to keep in mind, Jason, is that God is concerned with our spiritual lives more than He is with our physical lives. We are the ones that are so concerned with the physical.

Quote:
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).

But how do we know that it is God the one responsible for appointing things (what we think as evil) to be done in His name? We know that the devil is capable of trichery. And the Old Testament protraits God as an extremely barbaric god, who kills and tortures people just for the sake of it. Don't you think that this being could be the action of the devil? What makes you think that the god of the Bible is God. since you have acknowledge that the Bible has it inconsistencies, you could accept this as a possibility. I don't know that it is for sure, but it's a possibility too.

Actually, God did not just kill and torture people just for the sake of it. Those people sinned against God. No, not the devil. If it were the devil he wouldn't have been doing it to turn people back to God and that was the purpose of the punishments. Satan does not want anyone to turn to God. I have acknowledged the Bible has inconsistencies? Uh, where? The contradictions that have been pointed out to me have been explained to my satisfaction as not being contradictory. So, you'd have to give me more to go on for that one.

Quote:
Suffering is the result of human sin.

Suffering is many, many things but human sin.

I'm sorry, Jason, but the fact is if there had never been sin, there would never have been suffering.

Quote:
Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others?

I don't know

I don't know either.


Quote:
It is because sin is in the world.

No, I don't think so.

Only in the respect that if there was never any sin there would never be any pain, suffering, etc.


Quote:
But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering. "

Good for you that you find solace in all this fairy tale.

It's more than solace, Jason. It's how I live my life. It's what changed my life.


Quote:
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

Why can't He do it now; it will save us so much time and trouble if He did.

Sure it would! But, in God's time, not mine. He is the creator. He is God. I am not. I think sometimes man thinks themselves a little more important than we actually are. And yes, I definitely include myself in that statement.

Momma Angel wrote:

Hmmm. I had to really think on this. What I mean is if I could actually get you to feel what I feel when I am explaining it, perhaps it would be easier for you to understand.

Again, do you think I don't understand?

Of all the people that have posted in this thread, I think you have caused me to dig deeper into myself than I have in a long, long time and I truly and grateful for that. So, let's see if I can answer your questions.

I do think you understand. I really do. You don't seem to be one that would consider someone religious just off the bat as crazy, nuts, etc. You have taken the time to read (listen) to what I post (say) and ask me questions and answer mine. So, I really believe you have a very good understanding of what I am putting out there.

Momma Angel wrote:
I don't believe in bashing anyone over the head and scaring them into heaven. That is not the way it works! Maybe I try too hard to be the opposite of that, I don't know.

You mean, you believe in charming people into heaven instead?

That one made me laugh! Charming them into heaven! ROFLMBO! Oh, if it were only that easy! No, just kidding. No, not charming them, but not chasing them away with condemnation. You can't feed a baby steak and potatoes when it's born and you can't just tell someone, If you don't accept Christ, you are going to hell! Someone did that to my husband when he was six years old and he still has not forgotten it. So, we should treat people with respect and answer their questions and not condemn them.


There is a persistent undercurrent here; that you feel your work here is to bring us unbelievers into the fold. Why did you first show up at A2K? Why is your participation overwhelmingly in the area of religion? You have repeatedly said that your own faith is unshakeable, that you are not re-examining it, that you are in no danger of changing your mind; what is your goal in putting so much time and energy into these discussions, then?

I had to really think about this, sozobe. You really made me stop and ponder on this for a bit. I first showed up on A2K totally by accident. I couldn't tell you what I was searching for and it came up and I saw something someone had said about God and said, "Whoa!" "What the hey?!" I honestly had never run across anyone in my life that was saying the things about God that I saw in those posts! It offended me. It surprised me. And it scared me! Then, I started reading more and more posts and tried to find out why people felt like that. And on it went. I post mainly in the S&R forum because I love to talk about God. I love to learn about God. I have learned a lot from those that are non-believers. Things about Christian history I had no clue about. So, I ask questions when I see something I don't understand. Sometimes I'm sure I sound pretty stupid because I didn't have a clue as to what a strawman was and half the time I am looking up words I've never seen before. But, is my intent to bring unbelievers into the fold? I am really ashamed to say this, but no. I know I should be trying to do that and yes, I'd be thrilled if someone did believe but I can't convert anyone. Also, I know it's against the TOS to try to induce anyone into believing and I've already been suspended for an infraction (it was not for prostelytizing) and I don't want to do that again.

I ask these questions not because I personally am offended in any way, but because this undercurrent is a big part of the reaction you garner here, and if you'd like to outright deny it, here is your chance. (And if you want to do something about the undercurrent, I'm telling you so you're aware of it.)

I completely understand why there would be an undercurrent here. I have no problem accepting that at all. And like I said, I'd be thrilled if someone did "come to Jesus" because they read something I posted and wanted to know more, but, I can't convert anyone. I believe that with all my heart. That is something only God can do. I just want to learn more. I want to learn more about me, about you and others and God. I am pretty much homebound and the computer is really my contact with the world. I don't have a lot of interaction with people because of my cat shelter and living in the boonies. I hope this answers your questions. I do enjoy your posts and you really do make me think and that is what I want to do, think and learn![/[/b]

Momma Angel Well, I don't approve of homosexuality and abortion because I believe it is against God's law. I didn't approve of them before I became a Christian so I don't know what to make of that other than the fact I have just always felt they were wrong.

Actually, God did not just kill and torture people just for the sake of it. Those people sinned against God. No, not the devil. If it were the devil he wouldn't have been doing it to turn people back to God and that was the purpose of the punishments. Satan does not want anyone to turn to God.

Quote:

Momma Angel Well, I don't approve of homosexuality and abortion because I believe it is against God's law. I didn't approve of them before I became a Christian so I don't know what to make of that other than the fact I have just always felt they were wrong.

Did you approve of slavery before you became a Christian? If not, are you ok with it now? Do you think a disobedient son should be stoned to death? The bible's ok with it. Are you?

You are speaking of things in the Old Testament, pauligirl. There was a new covenant with God and people no longer served the same punishments as in the Old Testament. I am not ok with slavery and I think if you did some checking you would see that slavery in the New Testament times was not the same as slavery in the states.

Quote:

Actually, God did not just kill and torture people just for the sake of it. Those people sinned against God. No, not the devil. If it were the devil he wouldn't have been doing it to turn people back to God and that was the purpose of the punishments. Satan does not want anyone to turn to God.

Now, there's another strange thing.....
If Satan does not want anyone to turn to God, why does he punish them? Seems like he works for god. (Witness Job.)

Would Satan really want to torture you for doing his evil work? Surely he would give you a pat on the back and a pint of cold beer, not tie you to a rock and attack you with a cheesegrater. What's he going to say? "Aha! Right, you gave in to temptation and lived a life of Sin, just like I wanted you to. As punishment for disobeying God, and doing my work instead, I'm... erm... going to torture you... er... Hang on a minute.... Have I got that right?"
We are always told "If you are Good, you will be rewarded in Heaven, if you are Bad you will be punished in Hell.". Well, unless Hell is full of Angels doing the torturing, it seems like the saying should be "If you are Good, you will be rewarded in Heaven, if you are Bad you will be rewarded in Hell.". You can understand why priests never tell you this when they are ranting on about Hellfire And Damnation.
Could it be that Lucifer is working under the direct orders of God - "Now then, Luci old pal. I want you to get some big red horns and go tempt some mortals. If you succeed, you can inflict pain on them until they repent, when they can come here with me. Oh, and be careful not to let them know I put you up to it."
It should also be remembered that the Creator is supposedly omniscient. When he created the Angel Lucifer, he knew exactly what was going to happen (how could he not, if he is omniscient?). God created Evil, and created Satan as an instrument of Evil, and us mere mortals are the ones who are on the receiving end and get all the eternal torment. Might it not have been easier to simply not create Evil in the first place?
I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, demons or angels. There is no devil trying to tempt you to eat one more doughnut, drive a little faster, murder your neighbour, burn down a church or cheat on your partner. If you do something bad, it is your own fault and no-one else's.
Should we teach our children that they are under constant attack from evil, invisible demons, trying to get them to be naughty, and that if they do then they will horribly tortured forever? Or should we try to teach them respect for others and a sense of responsibility and accountability?
Accept responsibilty for your own actions.
Don't seek forgiveness from your deity - seek it from those you hurt.
The Devil didn't make you do it. You did.

Bits and pieces taken from :http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/hell.html

P (sorry for the sloppy format job)

You seem a bit miffed (?) about my post about homosexuality? I am sorry if you are. But again, just because I think the act of homosexuality is wrong it does not mean that I treat homosexuals any differently than anyone else. I don't like lies either, but I don't treat people that lie any differently either. Everyone sins, pauligirl. I don't think it's right to treat anyone any differently because of it.

You are speaking of things in the Old Testament, pauligirl. There was a new covenant with God and people no longer served the same punishments as in the Old Testament. I am not ok with slavery and I think if you did some checking you would see that slavery in the New Testament times was not the same as slavery in the states.

You seem a bit miffed (?) about my post about homosexuality? I am sorry if you are. But again, just because I think the act of homosexuality is wrong it does not mean that I treat homosexuals any differently than anyone else. I don't like lies either, but I don't treat people that lie any differently either. Everyone sins, pauligirl. I don't think it's right to treat anyone any differently because of it.