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bush Insists We Must Have Patriot Act

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 06:51 am
squinney wrote:
Most of us here have read it, Brandon. Give it a try.

Meanwhile, the point AGAIN is that if Bush can do whatever he wants due to his authority as CIC, and because Congress gave him the okay to use any and all force necessary... Why does he need the Patriot Act?

Congress didn't give him the authority to violate laws, so he changed some of them.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 06:52 am
For starters, Brandon........

The Authorities can now.....

1) SEARCH YOUR HOME AND NOT EVEN TELL YOU. The USA Patriot Act expands law enforcement's ability to conduct secret "sneak and peek" searches of your home. Investigators can enter your home or office, take pictures and seize items without informing you that a warrant was issued, for an indefinite period of time. (SECTION 213)

2) COLLECT INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT BOOKS YOU READ, WHAT YOU STUDY, YOUR PURCHASES AND YOUR MEDICAL HISTORY. The USA Patriot Act gives law enforcement broad access to any types of records - medical, financial, gun, library, educational, sales, etc. - without probable cause of a crime. It also prohibits the holders of this information, like librarians, from disclosing that they have produced such records, under threat of imprisonment. The court orders are issued by a secret intelligence court in Washington and judges have little power to deny applications. (SECTION 215)

3) SEIZE A WIDE VARIETY OF BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL RECORDS, and in certain instances access the membership lists of organizations that provide even very limited Internet services (message boards on your church website for instance) using "national security letters," or NSLs, which are issued at the sole discretion of the Justice Department. The Patriot Act expanded access to these NSLs, which also impose a blanket gag order on recipients and are not subject to judicial review. (SECTION 505)

4) READ PARTS OF YOUR E-MAILS AND MONITOR WHAT YOU LOOK AT ON-LINE. The Patriot Act lets the government get records that could show the subject lines of your e-mails and details about your Web surfing habits (like your recent research on Google), all without probable cause. (SECTION 216)
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 06:54 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
squinney wrote:
Most of us here have read it, Brandon. Give it a try.

Meanwhile, the point AGAIN is that if Bush can do whatever he wants due to his authority as CIC, and because Congress gave him the okay to use any and all force necessary... Why does he need the Patriot Act?

Congress didn't give him the authority to violate laws, so he changed some of them.


Which ones did he change?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 07:49 am
Re: bush Insists We Must Have Patriot Act
Debra_Law wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Why the big push? Obviously this ass_hole will just do what he wants whether it's legal or not........he's proven that with the wiretaps.....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/03/bush.patriot.ap/index.html


Which part of the Patriot Act specifically is illegal?


Brandon:

You have completely missed the POINT of this thread.

BVT did not say the Patriot Act is illegal. He said the ass_hole (bush) will do whatever he wants regardless of whether the ass-hole's conduct is legal or not.

Example: Bush is engaging in domestic surveillance of the American people without FISA court approval required by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). The Patriot Act specifically amended FISA to make it easier for the government to obtain FISA court approval to conduct electronic surveillance of United States persons who have ties to international terrorism. However, Bush is intentionally violating this congressional enactment. Bush claims that he has inherent constitutional authority as the commander-in-chief to conduct domestic surveillance of United States persons without FISA court approval in violation of FISA.

Therefore, why does the ass_hole claim that he needs the Patriot Act to fight the war on terrorism? If Bush has inherent constitutional authority to protect the United States from terrorism at his own discretion without any statutory checks or balances, why does he need the Patriot Act?[/quote

debra gets and has stated the point of my post. brandon you can go to lunch now.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 08:09 am
Lord Ellpus wrote:
For starters, Brandon........

The Authorities can now.....

1) SEARCH YOUR HOME AND NOT EVEN TELL YOU. The USA Patriot Act expands law enforcement's ability to conduct secret "sneak and peek" searches of your home. Investigators can enter your home or office, take pictures and seize items without informing you that a warrant was issued, for an indefinite period of time. (SECTION 213)


SEC. 213. AUTHORITY FOR DELAYING NOTICE OF THE EXECUTION OF A WARRANT.

Section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(a) IN GENERAL- ' before `In addition'; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(b) DELAY- With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if--

`(1) the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705);

`(2) the warrant prohibits the seizure of any tangible property, any wire or electronic communication (as defined in section 2510), or, except as expressly provided in chapter 121, any stored wire or electronic information, except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure; and

`(3) the warrant provides for the giving of such notice within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.'.

Quote:
2) COLLECT INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT BOOKS YOU READ, WHAT YOU STUDY, YOUR PURCHASES AND YOUR MEDICAL HISTORY. The USA Patriot Act gives law enforcement broad access to any types of records - medical, financial, gun, library, educational, sales, etc. - without probable cause of a crime. It also prohibits the holders of this information, like librarians, from disclosing that they have produced such records, under threat of imprisonment. The court orders are issued by a secret intelligence court in Washington and judges have little power to deny applications. (SECTION 215)


SEC. 215. ACCESS TO RECORDS AND OTHER ITEMS UNDER THE FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE ACT.

Title V of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1861 et seq.) is amended by striking sections 501 through 503 and inserting the following:
`SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.

`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--

`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and

`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

`(b) Each application under this section--

`(1) shall be made to--

`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or

`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and

`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.

`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.

`(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).

`(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.

`(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context.
`SEC. 502. CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT.

`(a) On a semiannual basis, the Attorney General shall fully inform the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the Senate concerning all requests for the production of tangible things under section 402.

`(b) On a semiannual basis, the Attorney General shall provide to the Committees on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives and the Senate a report setting forth with respect to the preceding 6-month period--

`(1) the total number of applications made for orders approving requests for the production of tangible things under section 402; and

`(2) the total number of such orders either granted, modified, or denied.'.

Quote:
3) SEIZE A WIDE VARIETY OF BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL RECORDS, and in certain instances access the membership lists of organizations that provide even very limited Internet services (message boards on your church website for instance) using "national security letters," or NSLs, which are issued at the sole discretion of the Justice Department. The Patriot Act expanded access to these NSLs, which also impose a blanket gag order on recipients and are not subject to judicial review. (SECTION 505)


Nothing more than a slight modification of existing law.

Quote:
4) READ PARTS OF YOUR E-MAILS AND MONITOR WHAT YOU LOOK AT ON-LINE. The Patriot Act lets the government get records that could show the subject lines of your e-mails and details about your Web surfing habits (like your recent research on Google), all without probable cause. (SECTION 216)


Again, nothing more than a modification of existing law.

It seems that you are worried about the possible abuse of power by the federal government. You may as well worry about an asteroid striking you dead too.

There has been to record of abuse by authorties using the Patriot act as protection. Let me repeat that... There has been no record of abuse by authorities using the Patriot act as protection.

On the other hand, there have been several arrests that happened BECAUSE of the Patriot act.

I would suggest that you stop listening to the dogma of the Democrats and start paying attention to world events. Why don't you come back when you have evidence of abuse instead of hopes.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 09:07 am
squinney wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
squinney wrote:
Most of us here have read it, Brandon. Give it a try.

Meanwhile, the point AGAIN is that if Bush can do whatever he wants due to his authority as CIC, and because Congress gave him the okay to use any and all force necessary... Why does he need the Patriot Act?

Congress didn't give him the authority to violate laws, so he changed some of them.


Which ones did he change?

I mean by passing the Patriot Act. I was answering your question.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:03 am
He didn't change the laws by passing the Patriot Act. Congress changed the laws and he agreed to them.

The Patriot Act expanded FISA. Despite that, Bush went behind Congress and changed the law to what he wanted, even after Congress had denied him the authority to eavesdrop on Americans.

If he, on his own, is going to go beyond what Congress allowed with the Patriot Act, why does he need it renewed?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:22 am
Because the several governemnt agencies working under the umbrella of the Patriot act need it to be able to keep doing their jobs.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:24 am
McGentrix wrote:
Because the several governemnt agencies working under the umbrella of the Patriot act need it to be able to keep doing their jobs.[/quote

you mean maintaining the status quo so they can keep their positions of power and work the system for their personal gain.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:32 am
No, I mean so they can do the job of keeping America secure from foriegn and domestic threats.

There have been numerous cases that have been made as a direct result of the Patriot act that may not have been made without it.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:38 am
McGentrix wrote:
No, I mean so they can do the job of keeping America secure from foriegn and domestic threats.

There have been numerous cases that have been made as a direct result of the Patriot act that may not have been made without it.



How can you be sure that these supposed cases wouldn't have been made without the Patriot Act?

Could you give specific cases where this has occurred?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:50 am
squinney wrote:
He didn't change the laws by passing the Patriot Act. Congress changed the laws and he agreed to them.

The Patriot Act expanded FISA. Despite that, Bush went behind Congress and changed the law to what he wanted, even after Congress had denied him the authority to eavesdrop on Americans.

If he, on his own, is going to go beyond what Congress allowed with the Patriot Act, why does he need it renewed?

Presumably it provides surveillance and law enforcement tools useful in fighting the people who are trying to kill us.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:52 am
You may this report helpful LE.

http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/docs/071304_report_from_the_field.pdf
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 12:00 pm
McGentrix wrote:


Isn't his link a bit like reading a report on what is the best car in the world, that has been prepared by the Ford Motor Company?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 12:03 pm
No, it outlines specific cases that couldn't have been made without the aid of the Patriot Act. That is what you asked for isn't it?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 12:04 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Presumably it provides surveillance and law enforcement tools useful in fighting the people who are trying to kill us.


How very presumptuous of you . . . did you mean saw our heads off while we scream?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 12:35 pm
Setanta wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Presumably it provides surveillance and law enforcement tools useful in fighting the people who are trying to kill us.


How very presumptuous of you . . . did you mean saw our heads off while we scream?

1. Do you assert that there is not a group of people (generally associated with Islam and the Middle East) trying to kill us (Americans)?
2. Do you assert that there have not been cases of insurgent groups in Iraq kidnapping noncombatants for blackmail puroposes, and sawing off their conscious heads while they most probably scream in pain, or shock, or beg for mercy?

Is there any logic or truth to your above post, or is it just a load of crap with no meaning relevant to the discussion? If you make a clearly stated and specific argument and I reply with some words devoid of any real argument, but that sound insulting, it signifies nothing relevant, and the same is true when you do it to me.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:15 pm
McGentrix wrote:
No, I mean so they can do the job of keeping America secure from foriegn and domestic threats.

There have been numerous cases that have been made as a direct result of the Patriot act that may not have been made without it.


quote me exact examles and your irrefutable proof please.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:21 pm
You can read, can't you?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2006 02:32 pm
yes I can, and I know an infomercial when I read one. What is being asked for is specific cases with irrefutable proof. Read this over s-l-o-w-l-y, and you may get it. If not, just make a snotty remark.
0 Replies
 
 

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