ACTING IN GOOD FAITH

Mr. Setanta,

Actually, I think most of us have addressed the topic. Unfortunately, you don't seem to accept anything we have said. Go figure.

Sorry, Lash

Those are the only participants, other than me, whom i have seen to consistently address the topic. Do you intend the topic, or do you just intend to continue trolling?

Okay, where in the rules does it say you have to stay completely on topic

We are just filling in until someone else comes along smart enough to enage in conversation with you, Mr. Setanta. :wink: Just trying to entertain!

I still say faith and superstition are not the same thing. You say they are. Ok, fine. I agree to disagree. :wink:

NEXT TOPIC!

Momma-- I was joking. It was like a freaking carnival clown, with that slow mo action.

Setanta,
Could you please explain "Do you intend the topic" ?

You have failed to demonstrate your contention. Therefore, you do not address the debate at issue. You have consistently polluted the thread with shouts and bold-faced text, and your tedious, out-dated emoticons.

You have not consistently addressed the topic.

I really wanted to, but the problem is, I agree with you completely. :wink:

Well, I never did say I consistently addressed the topic. Did I Where Huh, where

I told you, just trying to entertain until others smart enough to address this issue come along.

Short of solving this, religion stands as both faith and superstition, objectively speaking.

How does one define between a hope based superstition and a hope based faith?
I know I've asked this already but nobody has answered...

Actually it can. To a degree. I'll come back to this. There's five pages of BS to catch up on.

Well, here are the definitions as originally posted by Setanta (without emphasis). So, if we accept these as valid, then what, if anything, distinguishes the basic meanings of these two words?

Answers-dot-com wrote:
faith (fāth) n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

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su·per·sti·tion (sū'pər-stĭsh'ən) n.

1. An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.
2.
1. A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance.
2. A fearful or abject state of mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality.
3. Idolatry.

Holy guacamole! It is all BS, and personal, at that. C'mon folks. Take a pill. I'd hate to see this topic blocked just when I'm collecting the pieces of my brain together.

Another view.
___________

Superstition is a set of behaviors that are related to magical thinking, whereby the practitioner believes that the future, or the outcome of certain events, can be influenced by certain specified behaviors. The idea of "good luck" and "bad luck" gives rise to many superstitions, such as the belief that it is bad luck to wear gold and silver together.

Superstition may be expressed in the terminology of religion, giving rise to skeptical thinkers' opinion that all religion is superstition.

By its definition superstition is not based on reason. Many superstitions can be prompted by misunderstandings of causality or statistics. Others spring from unenlightened fears, which may be expressed in religious beliefs or practice, or to belief in extraordinary events, supernatural interventions, apparitions or in the efficacy of charms, incantations, the meaningfulness of omens and prognostications.

Any of the above can lead to unfounded fears, or excessive scrupulosity in outward observances.

Fanaticism, some argue, arises from this same displaced religious feeling, in a state of high-wrought and self-confident excitement. Such unquestioning loyalty can apply to politics and ideologies as well as religion; indeed, it can even be focused on sports teams and celebrities. See Baseball superstition for a series of such examples.

Whatever the cause, superstition can lead to a disregard of reason under the false assumption of a divine or paranormal form of control over the universe. A gambler might credit a winning streak in poker to a "lucky rabbit's foot" or to sitting in a certain chair, rather than to skill or to the law of averages. An airline passenger might believe that it is a medal of St Christopher (traditional patron saint of travellers) that keeps him safe in the air, rather than the fact that airplanes statistically crash very rarely.

Superstition is also used to refer to folkloric belief systems, usually as juxtaposed to another religion's idea of the spiritual world, or as juxtaposed to science.


Superstition and behavioral psychology
The behaviorist psychologist B.F. Skinner placed a series of hungry pigeons in a cage attached to an automatic mechanism that delivered food to the pigeon "at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever to the bird's behavior". He discovered that the pigeons associated the delivery of the food with whatever chance actions they had been performing as it was delivered, and that they continued to perform the same actions:

One bird was conditioned to turn counter-clockwise about the cage, making two or three turns between reinforcements. Another repeatedly thrust its head into one of the upper corners of the cage. A third developed a 'tossing' response, as if placing its head beneath an invisible bar and lifting it repeatedly. Two birds developed a pendulum motion of the head and body, in which the head was extended forward and swung from right to left with a sharp movement followed by a somewhat slower return. ("'Superstition' in the Pigeon", B.F. Skinner, Journal of Experimental Psychology #38, 1947 [1] (http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Skinner/Pigeon/))
Skinner suggested that the pigeons believed that they were influencing the automatic mechanism with their "rituals" and that the experiment also shed light on human behavior:

The experiment might be said to demonstrate a sort of superstition. The bird behaves as if there were a causal relation between its behavior and the presentation of food, although such a relation is lacking. There are many analogies in human behavior. Rituals for changing one's luck at cards are good examples. A few accidental connections between a ritual and favorable consequences suffice to set up and maintain the behavior in spite of many unreinforced instances. The bowler who has released a ball down the alley but continues to behave as if he were controlling it by twisting and turning his arm and shoulder is another case in point. These behaviors have, of course, no real effect upon one's luck or upon a ball half way down an alley, just as in the present case the food would appear as often if the pigeon did nothing -- or, more strictly speaking, did something else. (Ibid.)
Like the pigeons, many people associate behavior (head-turning or worship of God(s) ) with an external phenomenon (delivery of food or conquest by a foreign power) that was not necessarily connected in any way with personal behavior. Any misfortune could thus be interpreted as a sign of divine disfavor, whether or not the individuals who suffered bore direct responsibility.


Religious views on the subject of superstition
The Roman Catholic Church considers superstition to be sinful in the sense that it denotes a lack of trust in the divine providence of God and, as such, is a violation of the first of the Ten Commandments. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states superstition "in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion" (para. #2110).

The Catechism even appears to turn a bit of a critical eye on Catholic doctrine whenever certain practices become frivolous or scrupulous:

Superstition is a deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand is to fall into superstition. Cf. Matthew 23:16-22 (para. #2111)

Atheists, Agnostics and Freethinkers often see all Religious belief as a form of superstition.

I'll have to get back to this when I have more time. But I will surely examine this direction for a test of the quality of faith:

"Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]." (Matthew 7:20)

Pardon me if I'm repeating something already stated.
One difference shown by these definitions is that faith does not necessarily imply any hope for a particular outcome, while superstition apparently does.
So, basically, it looks to me like we're talking about synonyms.

Faith Vs. Superstition

In chapter 5 Luke tells us what Jesus did when He called Peter to leave his boat and follow Him. Peter had a family. He had financial responsibilities. He couldn't just stop fishing. Jesus understood and told him to push off into the deep water and throw his net over the side. Peter was rewarded with a massive catch. Peter knew then he could follow Jesus and still be a responsible father and husband.

Jesus never calls us to a blind faith. He is the one who gave us brains and He wants us to use them. Faith without evidence is irrational superstition. Real faith intelligently looks at the evidence provided and steps out believing in the One who provided the evidence and trusting He will continue to provide as we journey with Him.

God is not honored by ignorant followers. Just look at those who honored Him. Moses was highly educated both in the courts of Egypt and in the solitude of the wilderness. Joseph became prime minister of Egypt. Daniel was third in power in Babylon. Isaiah's literature is as good as anything you will find elsewhere. Paul is one of the smartest men who ever lived. These men did not follow blindly. They looked around and responded to the wonders of a designed creation.

In Romans 1:20 Paul wrote, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: . ." Faith is the evidence of things unseen ignited by things seen.

http://religionworld.org/dd/archiv17/4272.htm

Belief in one God is the corner stone of all religions. Superstition is the irrational belief in anything and everything. We are talking about faith in God which is not just anything, but we do consider it everything. Superstition is being afraid to walk under a ladder, or not going anyplace without the lucky charm in your pocket. Belief in God may not be anything more than superstition to those who choose to mock and attempt to reduce one's faith to something less than acceptable. The faithful do not have to prove anything to anybody. If the non-believers want to refute faith in God... let them prove that He does not exist.

MA,

Question, can you back this up with biblical scripture? Offhand I'm thinking I can contradict that scripturally, but my bible isn't in front of me.

Anywhoooo...


Faith is by definition 'belief without evidence'.
It seems as though you are redefining the definition of faith as you go along.

Only abrahamic monotheism is religion?
Man, those 2 billion or so hindus are gonna be pissed
You are kidding, right?

So many words to ultimately say nothing at all.

That's all dandy.
Anywhoooo...

Here is the problem.
You all attach negative connotations to the word 'superstition', and positive ones to the word 'faith'
It is pretty much concluded that there is no definitive difference between the two. The contention seems to be in the devotees aversity to being labeled with what they perceive to be a degrading and demeaning title because of said connotations..
Interesting...