The Abramoff scandal investigation

Bush SOP:
Fire anybody that disagrees with their agenda
Hire anybody that has connections to the GOP even though they may not have any experience in the field -like Brown to FEMA
Reveal CIA secret agents when the spouse disagrees with this administration's agenda to start a war
Use government funding for party propaganda - not only in the US but also in Iraq
Usurp the Constitution to wiretap on US citizens without FISA approval
Usurp the Constitution to discriminate against Arab Americans
Usurp the Constitution to discriminate against gays and lesbians to deny them equal rights under the law
Lie or exaggerate to congress
Lie to congress and the American People about unauthorized wiretaps and torture of prisoners
Provide tax cuts to the wealthy, while cutting funding for adequate equipment for our soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan that reveals 80 percent of our marines were killed unnecessarily
Cut fundings for our veterans
Both the administration and congress have taken bribes from Abramoff and others - as indicated by Walter's above post

Ofcoarse, they are all innocent of any wrong-doing, because they say so.

What a bunch of ninnys.

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okie wrote:

I thought this was a debate forum whereby you acknowledge the arguments presented by your opponent and try to present actual evidence in opposition if you can? I guess I was mistaken.

Yep, you are definitely mistaken. This forum is what you want it to be.

I rarely engage in one on one debate, especially with those who I perceive to be either 1) bordering on the delusional 2) blind partisans 3) poorly informed 4) lacking in sheer brainpower or 5) narrow-minded. Not that you fit into any of those categories.

Occasionally I will "debate" with someone who disagrees but rarely as this medium is a very poor one in which to debate. It is just a waste of time IMO. So I state my opinion and move on.

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FreeDuck wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
But you will admit that the Dems are as guilty?

That remains to be seen in this case. I'm not sure why you would want such an admission since just a few posts ago you were questioning whether there was any wrongdoing at all. Now you want me to admit that the Dems are equally guilty of having done nothing wrong. Perplexing.

If taking money and trips from any lobbyist,including Abramoff,is wrong,as you say it is,then since the dems have also taken money and favors from lobbyists,then they must also be guilty.

If its not wrong,then neither party is guilty.

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mm, It's not so much whether republicans or democrats received money or favors from Abramoff; it's about whether those money or favors influenced legislation, and whether those moneies or favors were within the laws. Most of us want those that sold their votes for money or favor to end up in prison whether they are republicans or democrats; all, no exception.

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Right you are CI.

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MM, ditto what CI said and also, you make many assumptions about what I've said. I don't recall saying that taking money from Abramoff was wrong. Though personally, I think the whole lobbying game in its current incarnation is disgusting, I realize that not everyone agrees with me. There is an investigation and, so far, the majority of those implicated are Republicans. Therefore, to say that this is an "equal" problem between the parties is false. I can agree that corruption permeates both parties, but this particular case is not equally distributed among the two major parties. The only reason to insist that it is is to minimize the guilt of those involved.

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No Democrats took money from Abramoff. Some democrats recieved donations from tribes, but it did not go through Abramoff.

Republican talking points regarding Democrats being implicated have made it to the newsrooms. If the reporters would do any research, rather than grabbing the RNC fax just before going on the air, this wouldn't happen: CLICK HERE

I love it!

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Just by accident I happened to watch the Wolf/dean interview. Was very interesting.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

mm, It's not so much whether republicans or democrats received money or favors from Abramoff; it's about whether those money or favors influenced legislation, and whether those moneies or favors were within the laws. Most of us want those that sold their votes for money or favor to end up in prison whether they are republicans or democrats; all, no exception.

Absolutely!! I definitely want them ALL locked up if they are selling legislation. I don't care if they are Repub or Demo. MM has a tough time with that reality though. It's always his assumption that a Demo always wants the Demo to go free. Small thinking indeed!!

Anon

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squinney wrote:

No Democrats took money from Abramoff. Some democrats recieved donations from tribes, but it did not go through Abramoff.

Republican talking points regarding Democrats being implicated have made it to the newsrooms. If the reporters would do any research, rather than grabbing the RNC fax just before going on the air, this wouldn't happen: CLICK HERE

I love it!

From your link...
Dean said..."There's no evidence that I've seen"

Now,there are many things that you or I have seen no evidence of,that we accept as fact.
Also,do you really think that investigators would release ALL their evidence,during an investigation?

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Dean said they went through the FEC reports... It is easy for anyone to do that. I just did it and found Abramoff contributed to at least 136 GOP candidates or organizations with a total of over $83,000 in the last 5 years. I would love anyone to point to the Dem on that list.

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mysteryman wrote:

squinney wrote:
No Democrats took money from Abramoff. Some democrats recieved donations from tribes, but it did not go through Abramoff.

Republican talking points regarding Democrats being implicated have made it to the newsrooms. If the reporters would do any research, rather than grabbing the RNC fax just before going on the air, this wouldn't happen: CLICK HERE

I love it!

From your link...
Dean said..."There's no evidence that I've seen"

Now,there are many things that you or I have seen no evidence of,that we accept as fact.

Really? Name some.

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parados wrote:

Dean said they went through the FEC reports... It is easy for anyone to do that. I just did it and found Abramoff contributed to at least 136 GOP candidates or organizations with a total of over $83,000 in the last 5 years. I would love anyone to point to the Dem on that list.

It doesn't matter. The RNC talking point is that the scandal touches both parties. Why bother with facts when you have talking points?

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As to the question of whether Congress people sell their votes to the highest bidder I point to the recent legislation regarding the Medicare prescription drug benefit. That abortion was bought and paid for by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
Note the latest estimated cost stands at $1 Billion. More that twice the original touted cost.

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au1929 wrote:

As to the question of whether Congress people sell their votes to the highest bidder I point to the recent legislation regarding the Medicare prescription drug benefit. That abortion was bought and paid for by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
Note the latest estimated cost stands at $1 Billion. More that twice the original touted cost.

JayBea and I stand to benefit greatly from that mess, and I think it's one of the dumbest things congress has done lately!! The problem with it is that they have jacked up Medicare overall with that disasterous piece of crappola!!

Anon

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Roxxxanne wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
squinney wrote:
No Democrats took money from Abramoff. Some democrats recieved donations from tribes, but it did not go through Abramoff.

Republican talking points regarding Democrats being implicated have made it to the newsrooms. If the reporters would do any research, rather than grabbing the RNC fax just before going on the air, this wouldn't happen: CLICK HERE

I love it!

From your link...
Dean said..."There's no evidence that I've seen"

Now,there are many things that you or I have seen no evidence of,that we accept as fact.

Really? Name some.

Neither of us has seen evidence that the other exists,except for our writings.How do we know that the writing isnt the act of a supercomputer in a basement somewhere?

Neither of us has seen evidence that God does or does not exist (depending on your point of view),yet we accept it as fact.

Neither of us has seen evidence (except video,which can be faked),that man walked on the moon,yet we accept it as fact.

There are more examples,but you should get the point.

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That's your answer?

Shocked

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Quote:

Neither of us has seen evidence that God does or does not exist (depending on your point of view),yet we accept it as fact.

No, you don't accept this as fact. You accept this on faith.

I'm not sure you understand what a fact is.

But this sure isn't on-topic. I did go look at the FEC filings, and am having a hard time finding any Dem who took money from Abramoff.

It's important to remember how many millions of dollars are in play here; the numbers thrown around so far, a few million, are chump change. Nothing. Scanlon, Kidan, and Abramoff helped funnel hundreds of millions of dollars into the Republican machine over the years, and as more and more of the facts come out, it's going to look worse and worse for the ruling party.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Neither of us has seen evidence that God does or does not exist (depending on your point of view),yet we accept it as fact.

No, you don't accept this as fact. You accept this on faith.

I'm not sure you understand what a fact is.

But this sure isn't on-topic. I did go look at the FEC filings, and am having a hard time finding any Dem who took money from Abramoff.

It's important to remember how many millions of dollars are in play here; the numbers thrown around so far, a few million, are chump change. Nothing. Scanlon, Kidan, and Abramoff helped funnel hundreds of millions of dollars into the Republican machine over the years, and as more and more of the facts come out, it's going to look worse and worse for the ruling party.

Cycloptichorn

It probably will look worse,but "look" does not mean "is".
I prefer to wait till the facts come out,instead of throwing out a blanket accusation.

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The Abramoff scandal investigation

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