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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 08:54 am
Scrat said
Quote:
How so? Do you have evidence that Sharon is opposed to peace, or are you attempting to infer this from his use of his military?

If the latter, are you unfamiliar with the concept of self-defense? (I recognize that we could debate the methods and scale involved, but I find the notion that Sharon prefers conflict to peace absurd.)
You did see, perhaps, the link earlier wherein Sharon said there is no intention to give up territory or to cease taking more, and that Colin Powell was incorrect in his description of what Israel agreed to?

Quite possibly, the Mongols or Caeser or Napoleon would have wished peace too, in the end. It is the necessary conditions which they held ought to be in place first that made for some problems. You'll have to admit that Bush terming Sharon a 'man of peace' was a little bit on the Orwellian side of language usage.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:14 am
blatham wrote:
You did see, perhaps, the link earlier wherein Sharon said there is no intention to give up territory or to cease taking more, and that Colin Powell was incorrect in his description of what Israel agreed to?

I did.

You do recognize, perhaps, the difference between setting out your party's terms for a peaceful solution and refusing a peaceful solution?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:23 am
Well, it depends on the terms, doesn't it? Let me sleep with your wife and I'll stop egging your garage.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:26 am
Scrat,

That distinction is relevent, but sometimes the conditions desired preclude settlement.

Edit Blatham said it better.

I am inlcined to think Sharon wants peace, not as much as some of Isreal's past leaders but more so than he did in the past. Sharon used to write that there should be no settlement, the only peace he had had in mind was the end of Palestinians (they were supposed to go to Jordan).

Many speculate that in his age Sharon wants a legacy, he has fought Arabs all his life and sees a settlement as a lasting legacy. I hope so, I hope he does not still hold the views he wrote in his book. If he did, it would be perfectly fair to say that the only peace he wanted was one in which the realization of greater Isreal was involved.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:34 am
James Morrison,

I have rarely seen such flexibility in the use of the word "responsibility" in my life. The logic you employ would suggest that should any thug indicate to you what they want you to do if you want to stay alive (say, leave your house and take your kinds) and if it is not done to the thug's liking and he kills you it was your responsibility.

A simplification of sorts, I left out some issues that would cloud the simplicity of my argument and due to that you might rightly alledge apples vs oranges but I maintain that the justifications for the war along the lines of "we told them what to do to avoid it" both ignore the question of whether those warnings were given at a point of no return as well as ignore the question of whether the demands that alledgedly transfer all the responsibility of a pre-emptive invasion to the invaded are using some outstandingly convenient logic.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:35 am
HofT wrote:
Is it that y'all have no brains, or is it you have no shame??????


HOFT, mayhap they have differing opinions? Mayhap they are opinions derived from careful ratiocination? Mayhap it's all to simple to decry opposing viewpoints as brainless? Mayhap that was an utterly useless insult?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:43 am
sigh...
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HofT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:43 am
Craven - there ain't no mayhap about it. Those 4 billion go, or the planet with its animals, and trees, and air, and water, and oceans, and hope for the future, goes.

I vote the supernumeraries go, how's your vote?!
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:49 am
Mayhap I was asking you about the utility of calling people brainless with no substantiation?
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 09:52 am
blatham wrote:
Well, it depends on the terms, doesn't it? Let me sleep with your wife and I'll stop egging your garage.

Ah! Now we stumble across the question of whether or not those terms are reasonable... clearly lots of room for debate, and just as clearly a matter of opinion in many cases.

If we assume that Sharon is absolutely opposed to any modification on this specific issue, and we likewise assume that the Palestinians are equally firm in their resolve to see the opposite outcome, I would argue that both parties are equally culpable for the failure to reach a solution.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:10 am
The mind boggles, the minds boggle.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:15 am
fattie checking in...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:20 am
"everyone else" doesn't seem to fit for me, but all the other ......
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:28 am
Actually, I'm with HofT here. Reports coming back from the biosphere aren't the stuff of happy-making. And that's a big fattie reality that is just beginning for our kids and grandkids. I'm 55, and I'll be thankfully be gone when we humans prove just how stupid we really are, but in this not unpleasant meanwhile, I get to throw pies at pompous asses and play with girls.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 10:40 am
C'mon Blatham, you know as well as well as Mr. Bush that there is no ozone layer, our water has not got enough arsenic, it is possible to drill for oil and not leave a trace of your activity, (there is always the South pole) and beside that our generation will be long gone when the problem grows more immediate. By then our science will be fairly close to a fuel to replace fossil fuels. Haven't you ever reaad 'Atlas Shrugged'?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:09 am
Actually, Gelisgesti, I think you meant to say ozone hole. All agree there is an ozone layer in the upper atmosphere which reflects UV radiation.

Blatham,

How is it that only you have such exclusive access to and understanding of the real objectives of U.S. foreign policy and the real motives and ambitions of our leaders? What is it that enables you to see through all their pronouncements to the contrary and filter out all other plausible explanations and arrive at your very unflattering conclusions with such certainty?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:14 am
george,

I'm no blatham but it may well be that his conclusions are simply his opinions, and that the conclusions that there is nothing untoward happening are the same.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:20 am
Scrat wrote:

If we assume that Sharon is absolutely opposed to any modification on this specific issue, and we likewise assume that the Palestinians are equally firm in their resolve to see the opposite outcome, I would argue that both parties are equally culpable for the failure to reach a solution.


I hold both sides nearly equally culpable, but almost never at the same time. For example, during clinton's attempt at peace in the mideast I held the Palestinians responsible for the failure. Not that Isreal's offer was perfect but the Palestinians wre terrible in that negotiation and overplayed their hand.

At this point I believe that it is not the Palestinians who are the most obdurate. Many of them seem to recognize their position is not one that allows them to have all their demands. The Palestinian leaders have recognized that the initiation of the intifada was a mistake. Isreal under Sharon has removed the old offer from the table and has not shown much interest in the various proposals they have seen. But above all they still insit on sequential negotiations that are very impractical.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 11:23 am
I suppose that next you are going to tell me that HCFCs deplete the ozone and create the hole.

I'm really not a complete moron, there is a bit more work to complete but boy when I get that sheep skin ....

When a circus clown dies do all the other clowns go to the funeral in one car?
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2003 12:58 pm
0 Replies
 
 

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