0
   

The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 07:58 am
Scored 0-10, Steve:

1. 0
2. 0
3. 10
4. 10
5. 10
6. 10
7. 2.5
8. 5
9. 2.5
10. 0

Total: 50
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 08:09 am
(steve...it's quite ok, george and I might agree on menu items, but on some other things we argue)

First of all, it goes without saying that a military response to a neighbor's aggression is (outside of complicity in cause) justified. Obvious and simple point.
Quote:
My objection to Blatham's views is that he assumes the necessities that; the intent of the U.S. government is objectively wrong.
I do not assume that US government intentions are 'necessarily' of any nature. Historical and cultural realities set some limits to what a US administration might do or intend, but that range is vast.
Quote:
the motives of its leaders are equally wrong on a human level
This sentence is unclear in meaning. Let's assume you mean to claim I said all US leaders are morally bankrupt. I didn't say that, of course. I did say that THIS ADMINISTRATION clearly has no hesitation to tell untruths to its citizens: that both its attack on Iraq and its international negotiations preceding were examples of false pretences and arrogant disregard for international standards (think shell game plus Madison Avenue plus disdain for public opinion - domestic (lie to them) and foreign (who cares).
Quote:
the public utterances of its spokesmen are uniformly
deceitful; "uniformly"... Well, I suspect you're more comfortable with absolute than am I. Can we simply settle here on the observation that no other administration has been so commonly indicted for deceit, by commentators within the US and outside, than has this one.
Quote:
its execution of the recent war was carelessly wasteful of Iraqi lives;
You got grandkids, George? Ought we to imagine their guts and eyes splashed on the ceiling because somebody thinks cluster bombs are examples of engineering genius? As I think, along with the great majority of the world, that the war itself was unjustified, then yes, your sentence would apply.
Quote:
its motives in allowing reporters unprecedented continuous access to combat units were to hide and deceive; etc.
As it happens, again you have me correctly, I do think this. Of course, so do many other writers and observers (see numerous links on this thread). You do too, though you'd use the terms 'direct attention' and 'security concerns'' and 'proper context' and 'reporter safety' and 'don't give jerks like blatham what they want'.
Quote:
However the critical reader should recognize that his conclusions flow directly from his basic beliefs, and not from either the facts or a balanced view of history.
George, I confess I am not confident that you have your audience correctly picked out here, as 'critical readers' might not be identifiable to you readily.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 08:20 am
nimh good post

I heard Bush say yesterday that the US was going to hunt down and bring to justice those responsible for the Riyadh bombs. Have I heard this before?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 08:22 am
He said we would show them what is meant by "American Justice."

If he means the same "American Justice" we showed Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, well, we can rest assured that they will run free for the rest of their natural lives.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 08:47 am
P Diddie

Thanks for your entry for the Stormin Normin award 2003. As the only entrant I hereby declare you the winner. Your prize is a year's free entry to all Baghdad's museums together with a hand crafted figurine of Tariq Aziz in depleted uranium and camel dung.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 09:14 am
The more I think about this war, the more annoyed I get. NONE of the stated war aims have been met. THOUSANDS of people have been killed. Thousands more have had their lives ruined. Iraq has NOT BEEN DISARMED. Saddam has NOT BEEN CAPTURED OR KILLED. Moves towards a democratic government are STALLED. Tyranny has been replaced by BLOODY ANARCHY. Large numbers of people are STILL WITHOUT potable water and electric power. CHOLERA is reported in Basra. Government ministries have been systematically and DELIBERATELY LOOTED AND BURNED. The cultural heritage of Iraq has been TRASHED. Demonstrations against the occupation have been met with LIVE FIRE. The Americans have appointed THEMSELVES the arbiters of what to do with IRAQ'S OIL REVENUES and awarded huge reconstruction contracts WITHOUT TENDER to EXCLUSIVELY AMERICAN firms.

So....all in all, I suppose its all going to plan.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 09:29 am
blatham wrote:
Craven

I have trouble with the phrase 'the death toll was low'. What shall we relate this case to? What it might have been if they'd used more cluster bombs than they did use? Dresden? Panama?


'Other wars' would be a reasonable answer there, I'd say.

According to a tableapparently derived from the Worldwatch Institute ("Our work revolves around the transition to an environmentally sustainable and socially just society") that I happened upon just now, there were over 30 ongoing wars that had cost over 1,000 deaths in each of the years between 1981 and 1994. In each of those same years, according to that stat, there were in between 7 and 11 ongoing wars that had taken over 100,000 lives.

The war in Iraq apparently took some 4,000 civilian lives, several hundred US/UK military casualties and an unknown quantity of Iraqi soldiers' lives. Even should the totals add up to some 10,000, the war wouldn't have ranked in the top 10 of bloodiest wars in any of the above-mentioned years.

Sorry if that sounds too calculating. But you asked ...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 09:33 am
nimh

The calculation is important, and the result, if estimations are about right, is a good one in and of itself.

But the wider context makes enthusiasm for the calculation (which I understand isn't your point) suspect.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 09:51 am
I'm troubled by these calculations, in which one murderer is compared against another by the numbers. Had it been necessary for us to invade Iraq -- necessary not according to our personal judgments but according to the cooler heads around the world, say -- the numbers might seem "justifiable." But even that seems ridiculous according to accepted standards of morality. What I don't like in all this is our two-faced morality: the one we preach and the one according to which we actually operate. The "enthusiasm for the calculation" which Blatham points to is the latter's doffing of cap to the former. And an answer, lately, to the double moral standard has been (and this is highly visible here in these discussions) to scoff at the standard as impractical -- a new brazeness which is particularly disgusting.

Welcome back Timber! We missed you, and questioned your absence and had conspiracy theories about it!
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 10:30 am
Sofia wrote:
The profound bias here should be self-evident. It goes beyond the facts and beyond reason. Of course there are elements of truth in nearly all of his accusations. However the critical reader should recognize that his conclusions flow directly from his basic beliefs, and not from either the facts or a balanced view of history.
Quote:
Sofia, what good can be said about a child torn in half by a 'dud' bomblet from a cluster bomb? Children whose only error was to be born near Georges's oil.
What good can be said about a childpurely and only
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 10:31 am
Visitors to the Panawave site (www. panawave.gr.jp) learnt that the world will end on 15 May with a series of cataclysmic events, including earthquakes and tidal waves provoked by gravity from the unseen planet.

The link with Iraq is somewhat tenuous but I thought you better know the world ends tomorrow
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 10:46 am
Damn, Steve, and I bought green bananas last night...
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 10:50 am
The link with Iraq is not the least bit tenuous. After tomorrow, the whole issue will be moot.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 11:07 am
So you cancel your 'overchannel'-holidays, Steve? :wink:

(I might add that an old German mardi gras song says : "On the 30th of May is the end of world ..." [It's about therefor drinking more, ... etc, of course])
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 11:32 am
LOL, PDiddie.
0 Replies
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 11:34 am
JamesMorrison wrote:
...the U.S., even laboring with such disparaging adjectives that have been heaped upon it, is the only entity capable of this accomplishment.

(The quoted sentence refers to the possible role of the USA in regulating the Israeli-Palestinian conflict)
I completely agree. There is no other country being able to impose peaceful solution on both sides of the conflict. From one side, American influence on Israel is much stronger than this of UN or EU (their open and blatant pro-Arab position makes them irrelevant in opinion of the Israeli political leaders). From the other side, U.S. is able to undermine the infrastructure of terror by means of intimidating its foreign sponsors, such as Syria and Iran (results of the war against Iraq strongly enhance American possibilities to apply pressure on the latter regimes).
American position is wrongly being considered unequivocally pro-Israeli. It is pro-Israeli only in the following aspect: U.S. takes into consideration essential conditions of Israeli national survival and protects these. But in all the other aspects of American approach it is rather balanced, since USA supports the idea of two countries for two peoples.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 01:02 pm
Steve
Your warning comes too late. I just spent $240 for some work on my car. Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 01:28 pm
There was a picture of them in the paper today. Aparently they dress all in white to shield themselves from the fatal waves.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 01:50 pm
There was a very good programme on BBC R4 this week (radio programme- Clive Anderson in the chair for the discussion) which examined the legal basis for this war.
Findings, illegal.
No surprise there then.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 May, 2003 04:03 pm
"I just spent $240 for some work on my car." $459 here -- new radiator, thermostat today. Hope Armageddon holds off a bit...

On the other hand, the bananas on the counter are almost overripe...
0 Replies
 
 

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