"...the way in which the invasion of Iraq was a naked failure."
Tartarin - could you expound further on this thought from above?
Bush administration: Events and communiques are enough to make one schizoid. Or the entire population. The inconsistencies and contradictions are clear and naked on the face of things.
A great deal of effort is being expended to cement a clear association between Bush admin., but more so Bush himself. with the military. And yet we now must have a civilian head up the reconstruction efforts? Who is trying to kid whom?
This kind of thing won't work if it is as transparent as it is now.
Well, Sumac, you yourself expounded very well on that! I'd only add that the "success" in Iraq relies entirely on perception, not on fact. IF you're willing to overlook the diplomatic failures (and their far-reading consequences), IF you're willing to overlook the atrocities committed during the invasion (and CNN and Fox will help you do that), IF you're willing to overlook the fact that not one of the stated goals of the invasion was achieved (bait and switch seems to work on many Americans), IF you're not bothering to scrutinize the process which passes for "democratization" in Iraq, etc. etc., then "Operation Freedom" (ho-ho) was a roaring success. However, if you are willing to take a closer look at the Little List the Left made before the war, detailing the Real Reasons Bush wanted to invade Iraq, you will see that the list was right on target -- even up to and including today's revelation that the administration lied about the Halliburton contract which does, in fact, include administration of the oil wells and distribution of product.
Both the administration and its adherents remind me of something funny but really childish I did at about eleven when, for some lapse like not cleaning my room, I was told I couldn't have popsicles FOR A WHOLE WEEK. I "retaliated" by writing in my diary -- and leaving it open on the sofa in the living room -- "No popsicles for a week! Interesting! Coincides with my decision that I really have to stop eating so many popsicles! Perfect!"
Hey, the administration REALLY didn't want Saddam or democracy or WMD's after all! We really don't mind not having them! It's turned out PERFECTLY!
And the damn ship turned around steamed out into the Pacific again -- forty knots out, just so the president could put on a flight suit and tailhook in dramatically. Doesn't matter that the ship was delayed. The whole point was...
Empire vs. Republic
By Robert Parry
April 21, 2003
George W. Bush's doctrine of preemptive wars is creating a new deep divide in U.S. politics. On one side, Bush and his backers see the Iraq War as the start of an American global empire built around unparalleled military power. On the other, a scattered grouping of skeptics dig in for what they see as a fight for the soul of the American republic.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2003/042103a.html
International Law a la Carte
By Nat Parry
March 25, 2003
As U.S. forces encounter stiffer-than-expected resistance in Iraq, the Bush administration and the U.S. news media are gaining a sudden reverence for international law.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2003/032503a.html
Geligesti -- I think the skeptics are less scattered that Parry says. Or rather, I'd say "widespread." There is a fringe, anti-war, anti-Bush network which is getting bigger and bigger. I listen to it in spite of its excesses on the Right hand side of the equation (it's a mix of liberterian, constitutionalist, environmentalist, anti-environmentalist and deeply anti-Democratic THOUGH espousing most of what the left-wing of the Dems believe). On one of its fastest growing daily talkshows this morning, the host said they had been contacted by a number of mainstream broadcast media in NY to ask for information about the new programming and the political point of view. When told what the point of view was, the network reps apologize and said they couldn't do an on-air interview because no anti-war, anti-Bush stuff is being broadcast. Period.
And how many Iraq's did he kill? /Is his count great than Saddam - GWB the one-man WoMD!
A very interesting Turkish view of Wolfowitz' last "comments":
Quote:ADMIT YOUR MISTAKE AND CHANGE YOUR STANCE
Click onto MANSET at
www.e-kolay.net if you want to read Wolfowitz's own words. Here I will relay to you what the deputy U.S. secretary of defense "meant" or, to put it correctly, "what I think he meant". The messages he gave were along the following lines:
* Wolfowitz expressed the conviction that the Turkish government, the Turkish General Staff and the Turkish society have adopted an openly anti-American, pro-Saddam line. He is suggesting that Turkey admit its mistake and change its stance. He underlined the need for Turkey to take the kind of steps that would place it in the U.S. camp once again. .
* According to Wolfowitz Turkey is not among the "countries that make up the Iraq coalition". He pointed out that because of that -- and, more importantly, because of the "Iraqis' reaction", Turkish troops will not be included in the peace force to be created. However, his choice of words also gives the message, "If you get closer to the USA the situation will change."
NORTHERN IRAQ NO LONGER YOUR BACK GARDEN
* Wolfowitz chose his words with utmost care. However, reading between the lines I get the following message: Northern Iraq is no longer Turkey's back garden. You cannot get into it and exit from it according to your wishes. You cannot act freely there. You have to notify us of your activities, obtain permission from us. And, in the long run, it would be hard for you to remain in Northern Iraq -- even if we managed to rebuild our relations to their former level. Stop being preoccupied with the Kurds.
THE GENERAL STAFF SHOULD NOT HAVE KEPT QUIET ABOUT THE 'MOTION'
* What surprised me most was Wolfowitz's remarks about the Turkish Armed Forces. Pentagon used to see the Turkish military as its best ally and never criticized them. This rule too has now been broken. Wolfowitz stressed, for the first time and with special emphasis, that they were bitterly disappointed by way the Turkish General Staff kept quiet when an issue vitally important for Turkey -- that is, the U.S. troop deployment in Turkey motion -- was about to be put to a vote in Parliament. When certain Pentagon officials called Ankara and received the following answer: "Sorry, we are not the proper interlocutor. Call the government," the American military reportedly went crazy.
DO NOT GET CLOSER TO SYRIA OR IRAN
* Wolfowitz made it all too clear that Turkey gives the impression that it is very close to Syria and Iran. I read his message in the following manner:
"If you are going to Syria and Iran in the framework of our policy and in order to relay our views, then there will be no problem. If not, your stance will create the impression that you are against us."
http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20030507151844799
LOL Walter - your Turkish article is riotously funny; hope the writer enjoys vast influence and will induce his military to start another coup (they've had lots of practice, as you know) and cross into Iraqi Kurdistan. Similar hopes are entertained at your Aussenministerium, btw - it will mean another 30 years before anyone has to worry about that application to join the EU <G>
HofT, do you then see advantages to Turkey entering and/or claiming Iraqi Kurdistan?
It's not a very likely scenario, Roger - but if it does happen (and our side handles it wisely) it would have profound implications. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire has been going on for over 3 centuries now - unlike the collapse of the Russian Empire, which went really fast, fortunately - and it's time for its last dying tendrils to finally depart European soil like "Bosnia" and "Turkish Cyprus".
The Russians would be only too happy to concur with such a development considering the troubles they've had in (Turkish-supported) Chechnya and other Islamic provinces on their southern border, and the Europeans would be delighted to get rid of Turkey's application to join the EU. Regionally it would result in the creation of a state of Kurdistan - if the Kurds can get their act together and stop fighting each other, which is also not very likely. Finally it would result in the definitive regional isolation of Israel which has entered into a military cooperation pact with Turkey, and possibly some destabilization in Iran, whose Kurds may also wish to join such a new state.
However this is all very speculative as I said. You will excuse the length of my reply but am leaving for a few weeks again and won't be able to respond to follow-up comments any time soon.
P.S. to Timber - if you're still following this thread, could you please help out with a pic I posted at Lola's Salon? It's too large and stretches the page but original site of pic (of a plane called "Dora") won't allow edit; not sure how to shrink it on this site. Thanks in advance for any help; hope all is well with you <G>
Thanks for sharing the opinion, Helen. I admit to not having formed one, which is why I asked.
Money
Maybe Saddam can make payments ...
``There is no precedent for a debtor government destroyed by military conquest,'' Soifer said. ``You have to go back to World War II.''
Clickhere
Uhhh George .....
Published on Tuesday, May 6, 2003 by Reuters
First Anti-American Protest Held in Afghan Capital
KABUL - About 300 Afghans chanted anti-American and anti-British slogans in Kabul on Tuesday in the first such protest since U.S.-led forces toppled the fundamentalist Taliban in late 2001.
The protesters, who included government employees and university students complained of growing insecurity, slow post-war reconstruction and delay in payment of state salaries by Hamid Karzai's U.S.-backed government.
Saddiq Afghan, a prominent Afghan philosopher, addresses a crowd during an anti-American protest in Kabul May 6, 2003. Some 300 Afghans chanted anti-American slogans in Kabul on Tuesday in the first such protest since U.S. forces invaded Afghanistan to topple the fundamentalist Taliban in late 2001. REUTERS/Ahmad Masood
Some even called for the withdrawal of U.S.-led coalition forces from Afghanistan and said the time had come for Afghans to fight the ``American invasion,'' just as they had resisted the British and the Soviets in the 20th Century.
``We don't want the Brits and the Americans!'' shouted one of the protest leaders, a young and irate Kabul University student.
``We want Islam to rule. We want security. They have failed to bring it to us and we want them out!''
Another protester shouted: ``Death to (U.S. President George) Bush; Death to America!''
The protest was a rare event in Kabul, where past demonstrations have usually been organized by the government. The ranks of the protesters were swelled by some passers by.
The protest was organized by the ``Scientific Center'' headed by Sediq Afghan, a prominent Afghan philosopher known for outspoken criticisms of the communist regime of the 1980s, the Mujahideen governments that replaced it and also the Taliban.
He vowed to continue peaceful demonstrations until ``the demands of people of Kabul'' were met. He said these included better security, improvements in the economy and progress in post-war reconstruction.
``They are talking about reconstruction, but instead making themselves rich,'' he told the crowd.
One of the protesters complained about the presence of ``Jews and Christians'' among U.S.-led coalition forces.
``The time has come to beat the nail in the White House's coffin,'' he said. ``If we had dogs instead of these Jews and Christians, we would have security.''
Afghan said that about the only changes people had noticed since the Taliban fell were that some women had stopped wearing coverall burqa garments and the introduction of the Internet.
``Where is the security and reconstruction that they boasted about?'' he asked, pointing at pot holes in a downtown street.
While a 4,500 strong international peacekeeping force has maintained security in Kabul since the Taliban fell, the United Nations and independent aid agencies are among those who complain about a lack of security in the provinces.
President Hamid Karzai's government has struggled to assert its rule far outside Kabul and has itself repeatedly complained about slow disbursement of funds by donors for reconstruction.
Much of the country remains under the control of warlords and their militias while Taliban remnants and their allies have stepped up attacks in the southern areas bordering Pakistan.
Copyright 2003 Reuters Ltd.
###
I have to wonder do these people believe that we must convert it from the $hit hole that it has been for years to an instant land of milk and honey.
Well, no. I think we have to do something about our own $ hole first, Au.
Tartarin
Are you inferring that the US is a $hit hole? Compared to what and where?
So where is Saddam?
And where are those WMD that were so important to disarm we had to launch an invasion?
If Saddam has shipped them to Syria, why arn't we pursuing them there?
Before the war we were told Iraq could disarm in a few weeks if they only co operated. Now we can bribe and reward or threaten to our hearts content and we still have found no WMD.
We will find some evidence eventually, Tony Blair is convinced. But I still think it a disgrace that the public were gullible enough to swallow all that nonsense about getting rid of WMD. Its now plain as a pike staff that the war was fought for the control of a strategically important country, oil, and Israel.
Where IS SADDAM?
Steve:
Did you know that Bush and Blair have been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for the war? I am serious!
Did you know that here in America this is National Rational Thought Day? Yuppers!
on ways to profit from possible conflicts with both countries.
