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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 06:56 am
Seems only fair, how about 'preemptive prosecution' for the probability of the commitment of war crimes?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 07:19 am
Bush 'Unsigns' War Crimes Treaty


http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13055
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 07:47 am
Don't forget, a successful prosecution of a war - whether right or wrong - goes a long ways towards firmly and permanently placing blinders on the masses!
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 08:20 am
What I hope the opposition will do is articulate -- SHOUT -- the way in which the invasion of Iraq was a naked failure.
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 08:52 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Bush 'Unsigns' War Crimes Treaty


http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13055


Now why on earth would you do that - sorry Americans but reasons to mistrust you are mounting.
Burn that Bush before it's too late
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 09:43 am
Tartarin/gozmo - the emperor wears no clothes and there is no mainline media outlet that will report this!
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 10:02 am
I hope he gets a sunburned willie
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 10:31 am
Smile Razz
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 10:57 am
perhaps the Iraqi's will be as confused as the Bush admin seems to be, or who's on first?
Quote:
Bush likely to appoint new civilian administrator of postwar Iraq
Washington-AP -- President Bush is likely to appoint a new civilian administrator of postwar Iraq.
He's expected to name Paul Bremer, an experienced career diplomat, to head the rebuilding effort there.
Bremer would be the top civilian in the post, and he would have authority over Jay Garner -- who has been leading the reconstruction effort up until now.
Word of Bremer's appointment leaked out last week during Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's overseas trip. At the time, Rumsfeld insisted he was satisfied with Garner's work in Iraq.
White House spokesman Ari Fleischer wouldn't confirm an announcement would come today. He only says President Bush and Rumsfeld are to meet later today on a "personnel matter."
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 11:17 am
Quote:
....He only says President Bush and Rumsfeld are to meet later today on a "personnel matter."


Hmmm, must be about the Carlyle Group and how they're to re-invest their profits - or maybe it's just for a date!
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 11:40 am
Gozmo wrote:
Now why on earth would you do that - sorry Americans but reasons to mistrust you are mounting.
Burn that Bush before it's too late


I do not see anything wrong in denouncing the ICC participation: USA as a country is an employer of its soldiers, it imposes on the m different missions, and it protects them against legal liabilities stemming from their actions while fulfilling the missions mentioned. What would you prefer: to abandon people that serve the country? In such a case no one would like to join the Armed Force.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 11:46 am
The fact of the matter is Bush doesn't give a rats a** about any soldiers - he is just protecting himself. He is now a war criminal!
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 11:51 am
Mr. Bush is a war criminal??? Proofs, please.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 01:16 pm
There for the seeing! Nothing hidden!
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 02:42 pm
steissd wrote:
]
I do not see anything wrong in denouncing the ICC participation: USA as a country is an employer of its soldiers, it imposes on the m different missions, and it protects them against legal liabilities stemming from their actions while fulfilling the missions mentioned. What would you prefer: to abandon people that serve the country? In such a case no one would like to join the Armed Force.


Are you suggesting that employees in the US who carry out illegal activities at the behest of an employer are indemnified from legal procedure. Well I bet der boys in der Mafia are pleased to hear dat, "Hey Joe, all we gotta do is snitch on der boss, den were in der clear. "

It ain't the movies you know, not all them American boy are as clean cut as Audie Murphy.............but then we both know who's hide he's really trying to save.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 02:51 pm
I'm no expert but I would think that the chain of command would insulate the grunt from any prosecution of a war crime.

Proof .... again I'm no expert but how about attacking another nation without provocation, attempting to assasinate the leader of another nation, causing the death of thousands of innocent people without provocation or just cause. I am sure a competent attorney could do a better job of enumerating charges but IMHO this war had no justification.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 02:55 pm
Reading about the set-up in which the Bin Laden family will profit mightily from Bechtel/Fremont's multi-billion-dollar contract in Iraq, it occurred to me that Cosa Nostra perfectly describes the attitudes and relationships of the Bush presidency which is nothing more nor less than a carry-over of the Reagan administration, personnel, policies, everything. Only the Don was a nicer guy, at least in some ways, than Michael Corleone. Everyone's doing favors for everyone else but when one of the favored gets uppity, POOF, the boys go in and take over his territory. Thus Saddam. Hey -- where are the people in all this? Where are we? Well, we're the poor suckers in the streets who take bullets too when there's a "family war" going on, or when there are profits to be had... Remember the alliances with the Jewish gangs? Well, there's Israel for you...
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 03:38 pm
Quote:
Operation Support Garner

The Pentagon's one-size-fits-all 'liberation' is a disaster in Iraq

Jonathan Steele in Baghdad
Tuesday May 6, 2003
The Guardian

American efforts to foist new rulers on the people of Iraq are becoming increasingly grotesque. In some cities US troops have sparked demonstrations by imposing officials from the old Saddam Hussein regime. In others they have evicted new anti-Saddam administrators who have local backing.

They have mishandled religious leaders as well as politicians. In the Shia suburbs of Baghdad, they arrested a powerful cleric, Mohammed Fartousi al-Sadr, who had criticised the US presence. In Falluja, an overwhelmingly Sunni town, they detained two popular imams. All three men were released within days, but local people saw the detentions as a warning that Iraqis should submit to the US will.

The Pentagon's General Jay Garner has taken an equally biased line in his plans for Iraq's government. He held a conference of 300 Iraqis in Baghdad last week and excluded almost every group which has an organised following.

In a Freudian slip at a recent press conference, Donald Rumsfeld smugly explained democracy as a competition in which rival politicians try to "garner support". His message in Iraq looks like the opposite - Operation Support Garner. Otherwise, you are cut out.

Washington's failure to hold broad-based consultations at central and local levels is provoking resistance, sometimes armed. In response, US troops have used excessive force, further raising tensions. Ten people died in Mosul when soldiers fired at crowds of protesters on successive days in mid-April. In Falluja the death toll from American shootings over two days last week was at least 16.

The massacre in Falluja was symptomatic. The town was quiet for two weeks after Iraqi troops and local Ba'ath party leaders fled. The imams halted the looting and got much of the stolen property returned. A new mayor arranged for schools to re-open and persuaded police to return to work. Then the Americans arrived, arrested imams, put up roadblocks and occupied a school - all without prior discussion with local leaders.

They seemed to be working from a one-size-fits-all Pentagon textbook. First "liberate", then move in and provide policing whether people want it or not. In Baghdad there were indeed security problems after Saddam's forces vanished, and many residents asked why US forces did so little to halt the looting of key buildings. Having failed initially there, the US over-compensated elsewhere. It came down too hard in Falluja and other cities where people did not want a US hand.

The contrast with Afghanistan is sharp. For months Afghans pleaded for the US to deploy international peacekeepers beyond Kabul to cities where warlords held sway or were fighting for power. The US refused, either for fear of taking casualties or because of lack of interest in a poor country once its anti-western regime was toppled.

In Iraq, where there are no warlords and people feel they have the expertise to run the country themselves, the US insists on moving in and staying.

It has excluded Iraq's best-known forces from consultations on forming a central government. The Islamic Da'wa party, which was founded in 1957 and suffered repression under Saddam in the early 1980s, was not invited. Nor was the Iraqi Communist party, which also lost thousands of its activists in the old regime's prisons. Both opposed the US attack. The communists are weaker than they once were, as a result of decades of propaganda that they reject Islam. But they are part of the Iraqi spectrum which needs to be recognised.

Washington's biggest omission is its refusal to make overtures to Iraq's clergy. The Shia Muslims in particular are enjoying a strong revival and cannot be pushed aside. There are family and other rivalries between the main groups. The al-Hakim family, which founded the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq after escaping to Iran 20 years ago, now faces criticism for going into exile. It has a volatile policy towards the US, sometimes meeting officials, sometimes denouncing them. The al-Sadr family, which stayed in the sacred city of Najaf, is gaining ground. Both groups must be brought into discussions on the future.

It is not too late for the UN to play a role. There is no need for foreign troops. Iraqis have shown a high degree of post-war unity and can provide their own security. The much-predicted clashes of Sunnis v Shi'ites, or Kurds v Arabs have not happened.

But the UN should come in, with a short-term mandate, to convene a genuinely representative conference of Iraqis which would choose an interim government and an assembly to draft a constitution. Only the UN can give legitimacy and impartiality to this process. Instead of supporting Washington as Mike O'Brien, the Foreign Office minister, did when he joined Gen Garner in co-chairing last week's highly selective meeting of Iraqi politicians, Britain should work with the security council to give the UN the same kind of government-brokering role as it had in post-war Afghanistan.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 04:15 pm
http://www.sltrib.com/2003/may/05062003/opinion/opinion.asp

This is the Salt Lake Tribune, not the LA or NY Times! Then past that up along side this:

http://www.sltrib.com/2003/may/05062003/opinion/opinion.asp
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 May, 2003 10:53 pm
Isn't Salt Lake the home of Orrin Hatch, the republican song and dance man, busy casrtigating the democrats?

Today Iraq seems more the boxing ring between Rumsfeld and Powell than anything else. And while they're having their turf battles, things are happening right under their noses.

SteissD - actually, the army here today is not regarded as highly as it used to be. Norman Mailer, the author, has written a great piece on the army being the last bastion of the great white male who has to prove his superiority. The mayor of New York has said he wants a giant ticker tape parade for the returning soldiers (a lot of people think it's to get at the Governor of New York), but there's a lot of public opposition to that.

Meanwhile, I see that some of the Iraqi war news has begun to lose its luster.
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