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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 05:51 am
JM: I really liked what you wrote, especially this:
Quote:
Also, it seems that some in this thread have argued that the U.S. is as much to blame as Iraq because the U.S., simply put, gave them WMD (or precursors, etc.), as if that argues towards...what? Then, when the U.S. sees the evil of its ways and tries to correct what that argument implies as a bad situation turned worse, the U.S. is suddenly a bad guy...again. From this one can only draw the lesson that if one has a history of aiding a fellow nation (As France and Russia actually has by selling Iraq armaments) and that nation "goes south" then one must convert to UN obstructionism to cover up the initial mistake while letting the problem bloom.


And I ask this: Have you ever, in any speechs or statements by this administration or the former Bush administration, seen such an admission of fault, that, in your words, the US had seen 'the evil of it's ways.'? My position from the beginning has been that the US ought to accept publicly at least some of blame for this particular tyrant's success, even for his invasion into Kuwait with glaspie's green light. (I've begun to doubt that Ms. Glaspie gave Saddam a green light, the more I think about it the more I've come to believe that she doesn't have a thought in her head.
See this: http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1999/05/27/p23s3.htm)
(Opps, that link has Tariq Assiz defending her honor..... who can believe him?)
Anyway, I think the US would be better off by being forthright, a position that would confound the few friends we have left, but give no comfort to those who truly oppose our interests.

Joe
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 05:55 am
Before the war I was extremely doubtful. After the war I am enraged.

Suzanne Goldenberg from today's guardian

Quote:
Some fears have diminished. The US tanks that shot their way into the city have lost their menace. Children now go right up to the US soldiers, smile, and swear at them in Arabic, finding it hilarious that the troops think they are being friendly.

The Iraqi communists have set up their own office in this formerly one-party state. In living rooms all over the city, intellectuals are plotting the launch of their own parties.

Young louts sit in the sun calling out obscenities at women passing by. Graffiti has appeared on walls kept clean by Saddam; many of the scrawls say, "pull out the tanks", or "No to Saddam, no to Bush, yes to Islam".
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 05:55 am
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 06:00 am
Steve...I shan't forgive you that little bit on the end there.

Gautam... the insensitivity in modern reportage doesn't seem likely to improve with corporate boards of directors at the helm. But it isn't the insensitivity of that CNN story that I find so remarkable, it is the adherence to the pro-war, pro-US storyline. What (in hell) is that all about?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 06:03 am
dys

Last evening, just by chance, my daughter and I turned on the TV and Dr. Strangelove was on. Hadn't seen it for a long time. Mad, militarist generals, incompetent and myth-enveloped politicians, glorification of technology... it's time to restoke the revolution.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 06:22 am
With hindsight surely it is now clear to even the dimmest advocate of this war that

the war aims were bogus
the action was illegal
the outcome is different to that sold to the public, (though not perhaps unintended)

This blatant example of American power projection into the heart of a strategic and vitally important part of the world has struck fear into the hearts of America's friends and warned her enemies to make plans.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 06:25 am
Blatham

It wasn't supposed to be funny, it was supposed to be shocking; and shocking that some people think it was funny.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 06:31 am
Blatham - You "shan't"? Yea, verily, forsooth? Zounds!!
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 06:45 am
I missed this by Geoffrey Wheatcroft on tuesday but it sums up my feelings

Quote:
Some liberals persuaded themselves of the justice of the war on Iraq, even if they knew perfectly well it wasn't immediately necessitated by those weapons which may or may not have existed. But this very point was addressed in the House of Commons - not this year in the debates over the Iraq war, but in 1854 in the debates over the Crimean war, when there was a riveting exchange between Benjamin Disraeli and John Bright, the most eloquent opponent of that war.

Using a fascinating phrase, close to what our own liberal warriors have said, Disraeli called it "a just and unnecessary war". In reply, Bright said that "every war undertaken since the days of Nimrod has been declared to be just by those in favour of it", but that "I may at least question whether any war that is unnecessary can be deemed to be just." That is really the question which MPs, and the country, should also now be asking.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 06:55 am
Bush interviewed by NBC...this is really quite interesting...each of us will likely have our favorite little bits http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/25/international/worldspecial/25INTE.html
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 07:06 am
Forgive Blatham, Snood. He's a Canadian and they talk funny. Like, you know, uh, we don't?!

Terrific report on NPR's Morning Edition this a.m. about our failure to provide a constabulary in Iraq:

[Iraq Policing
Although past experiences have taught the military to prepare for looting and lawlessness after the destruction of a government, the U.S. failed to prepare adequately in Iraq. NPR's Tom Gjelten reports that in previous conflicts not enough resources or troops were devoted to security.]

Do listen to it when it becomes available later this morning. Lots of hidden, underlying questions about, well, just what were the intentions of the US?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 07:17 am
Oh, come on you guys... 'shan't' is hardly an archaism. Now, had I referred to the president as a queynte, there might be cause for your hleahtor and vexatious coquettes.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 07:41 am
Well, blatham, actually "sha'n't" is newer than 'shan't' - but seldom used, I think. ('OED' and 'World Wide Words')
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 08:33 am
I'd like to say that I don't consider the President to be a queynte, that I think we are all victims of his quebas and that I hope he soon suffers from queasom.

I also cannot wait to play Scrabble with my friends...........

Very Happy

Joe
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 08:51 am
Mr. Joe Nation

Are you the California Representative by the same name? If so, would like to let you know I'm still a registered (Valley Girl) voter even though moved to East Coast some time ago. You can't always count on illegal alien voters who don't understand English to support your crew - though from your incomprehensible posts, as in:

"queynte, that I think we are all victims of his quebas and that I hope he soon suffers from queasom. "

one might think - with good reason - that these are your sole constituency - like, duh <G>
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 08:55 am
<Some fears have diminished. The US tanks that shot their way into the city have lost their menace. Children now go right up to the US soldiers, smile, and swear at them in Arabic, finding it hilarious that the troops think they are being friendly.>

That's truly hilarious----did you all have a good breakfast laugh?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 09:43 am
Yes, perception, a good breakfast laugh - probably the only one for the day, but it's a good start. Wink c.i.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 09:52 am
lets ban the speaking of their native language in Iraq, that'll teach them. After all we did it to the native americans as we liberated them from their land. btw is there going to be a new Bush inspiried definition of "liberate" in the lexicon of english usage?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 10:00 am
Quote:
[...]What is truly puzzling is that the prevailing American ideology is still underpinned by the view that US power is basically benign and altruistic. This surely accounts for the outrage expressed by US pundits and officials that Iraqis should have had the gall to resist at all, or that, when captured, US soldiers were exhibited on Iraqi TV. Apparently this is much worse than showing rows of Iraqi prisoners made to kneel or lie spread-eagled in the sand. Breaches of the Geneva Conventions are invoked not for Camp X-Ray but for Saddam, and when his forces hide inside cities, that is cheating, while high-altitude bombing is playing fair.
This is the most reckless war in modern times. It is all about imperial arrogance unschooled in worldliness, unfettered either by competence or experience, undeterred by history or human complexity, unrepentant in its violence and the cruelty of its technology. What winning, or for that matter losing, such a war will ultimately entail is unthinkable. But pity the Iraqi civilians who must still suffer a great deal more before they are finally 'liberated'.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n08/said01_.html


Well, yes. And now no Saddam. And Bush said yesterday they don't expect to find WMD's. And... And...

So what are we left with? Hypocrisy-democracy (like the one we've got at home); blood on our hands; the ignominy of having destroyed millenia of history; those parts of the UN we lovingly created smashed; lotsa lovely contracts for hand-chosen American multinationals; a rotten reputation overseas; and... and... and... ALL THAT OIL.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Apr, 2003 10:33 am
Tartarin wrote:

<Do listen to it when it becomes available later this morning. Lots of hidden, underlying questions about, well, just what were the intentions of the US?>

Can't wait-----do they (NPR) define new levels of negativism?
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