The US, UN & Iraq III

The gist of your arguement contiues to be that you find Islam to be a violent, dangerous, evil faith. You are welcome to your opinion, although I and many others think it smells of bigotry and intolerance.
Yet, instead of debating relevent points, you repeatedly repeat the same thing, over and over and over, and reject any other points of view by bashing the poester of those points of view (I recall a temper tantrum you threw where instead of discussing what teh poster had brought up, you went on about "old Europe" for several lines.). You don't like Islam.I think that is obvious. Time to move on address something else, no? The evidence does not support your assertion that Wahhabist thought is the root of all terrorism. Time to come up with a new theory.

Hobitbob wrote:

I do think that over-emphasizing one aspect of terrorist motivation and ignoring others is probably a comfortable way out of considering larger factors for some people, and if this is the case for you, than enjoy. I certainly have no desire to argue with you.
I'm not laying down any "smokescreen." I also do not believe that terrorism wil ever go away. The "war on terror" is a feel-good title meant to re-assure the simple. It allows the US to do horrible things, like invade sovereign nations, and destroy them, while attempting to maintain an air of moral superiority. Obviously you have bought into the fabrication. Many others have not.

You are so predictable-----Your stressing the" meriads of complexities" is just another halucinating way of ducking the issue----which is "Suicidal murder" is on the rise. You can continue to blame it on the imperialism of the west(mostly America), the tides, the crop circles, or what ever. It started before America achieved it's independence but you can still blame it on us---we're simple minded and just want to be left alone. Bovine excretment to you sir.

This happens every time, this boy is not ready to bring out into primetime. A true lack of perception <sigh>

Be careful, he is a pilot - will come to your house to bomb and strafe you

Hobitbob wrote:

he gist of your arguement contiues to be that you find Islam to be a violent, dangerous, evil faith.

You are a liar sir!----I never said Islam is anything but a fine religion. If you can find a post of mine to back your claim I will apologize----- if not an apology from you would be in order

while i realize my experience as growing up in Saudi Arabia as a child was without political knowledge or awareness i was very aware of the arab children that i played with and their families, how they treated each other and how they treated me. the need for people like perception to instill evil violent meaness into a culture he only knows from his political myopia his disheartning but also dangergous if we as a nation are to ever come to any understanding of a world that is not centered on us. looking at a people down the sights of guns and bombs does not make for cogent insights.

Yep -- I'm evil I guess ---- I just took a lady from my wife's church to the public auto auction and bought her a car because her car was wrecked. The lady had MS and I pushed her around the auction in a wheelchair until she found one she liked.

I'm beginning to feel like that young GI who while standing in line to buy a coke at the Baghdad university, was assassinated in the back of the head by some brave
Iraqi/coward.

Huh?

Perception, no one is "out to get " you. We aren't saying that you are evil. The world does not revolve around percy, this is not the percy fan club, we are not posting on "percy bashers are us." If your thesis does not hold up, then it is time for a new one. The rest of us have accepted this, perhaps you should too.

Second that.

NO MORE SMOKESCREEN HOBIT----I repeat you are a liar----find a post of mine to back your claim and I not only will apologize---I will leave this ------- thread forever.,

I wish you would do that anyway - you are inapporpriate and owe everyone an apology!!!!!!!!! These are the types of problems I always have with my CHILDREN - I can see them coming a mile off, and saw this happening earlier -

Oh for Pete's sake. Most of us here have demonstrated a curiosity and desire to learn about a lot of things. And I'm not sure, perception, where you got the idea you put a while back about many people thinking the war on terrorism would be decided in Iraq, hence the critical imporance of the study of Wahhabism.

The thing is, this discussion is not solely based upon the merits or otherwise of Gold's book. There comes a time to move on, go further afield, discuss the present U.S role in Iraq, discuss what is and isn't happening, and this encompasses many areas. History always has some interesting facts. For instance, the early history of the Arabs' trading with the Orient undoubtedly had influence on the growth of their religious thinking, in additiion to the early Judeo-Christian influences, but this isn't the time or place for it.

You were very generous with your time with that poor lady with MS, and are to be commended. Pushing her around like that represented a true act of charity.

Please note in advance that i've got no dog in the fight between HB and Perception, and wrote this piece before i read the above.

Perception, a little history for you. Among the ancient nomads of the Arabian peninsula, long before Mohammed and Islam, there was a custom known as the sunna. This can be thought of as a modus vivendi, a means of living together, or getting along. These fierce, proud, tribal warriors were contemptuous of the pacific inhabitants of oases, towns and seaports--but those people had the trade goods the desert nomads wanted. The sunna was a set of behaviors which these warriors would observe which would allow them to move among these people without violence, and without defiling their proud spirits in their contact with those whom they despised.

In 622, Mohammed and about 70 of his followers were forced to flee Mecca to Yathrib (modern Medina). The question immediately arose among his followers as to how they were to live as righteous men among pagans. Mohammed answered this difficulty with a resort to the ancient custom of the sunna, which is to say, that he developed a code whereby the righteous could live among and deal with the infidel and the pagan without being defiled.

After the death of the prophet, the conquest of the decaying Sassanid Persian empire was the first significant political act of the Muslims. A ruling body was formed, with the Caliph as its head--and during the second caliphate, Baghdad was founded. The fourth Caliph was Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Talib, the first cousin of the prophet, as well as his son-in-law, having married the Prophet's daughter, Fatima. Ali had been a boy of about eight of nine years of age when Mohammed began his religious career, and he became a profoundly passionate dedicatee to the way of Allah--so much so, that he became the first great mystic of Islam. His particular belief was in a revelatory mysticism, that Allah would show his wishes through revelation, and guide his followers onto the true path, the shia. Ali had come to power during a time of strife and rioting in Medina, and when he was finally chosen, members of the Companions of the Prophet came to him to tell him that he must punish those who had murdered Uthman, the preceding Caliph. Ali demured at first, because he felt that the chaos of rioting must be quelled before any action could be taken, and he said that he did not wish to have men put to death unjustly (this is the story line of those who admire Ali, at any event, and the Sunnis may have a different take on this). This lead to bad blood between powerful members of the Companions and Ali.

Ali felt that Islam should not tolerate infidels (or so it is claimed), and that they should be conquered and given the choice between conversion and death. His opponents among the Companions referred to Mohammed's sunna during the exile, and said that the righteous could live among the infidel, if a proper sunna were established. They had a very pragmatic point, as well--the Jews and the Nestorian Christians could be a great asset to the Islamic conquest, and could be subjected to a special tax because they were infidel.

The upshot of this is that the followers of Ali, the followers of the shia, became the first Shiites--other sects have descended from them, as well as different versions of Shiism. Those who followed the Companions who opposed Ali became known as the Sunnis, because of the adherence to a sunna. This was the first great schism in Islam, and has been the most profound. It is equivalent to--although in fact much more profound--the divide between Protestant and Catholic among the Christians. The nation of Iraq under Saddam was technically a secular state. His followers were from the minority Sunni of the central part of that nation, and they were not particularly religious--the Wahabbis were no part of their culture. The majority of the non-Kurdish population of Iraq are Shiites, and as that sect grew after Ali's death, it spread to the east, to Persian (Iran), to Afghanistan and to India. As with any initially radical sect, the Shiites eventually matured, and settled into a pragmatism not unlike the sunna. There is definitely an ethic among Shiites which allows them to kill the infidel without qualm, but it is by no means reasonable to suggest that Shiites are automatically terrorists. It is the extremism of fundamentalism which lends itself most readily to an appeal to "holy war." The Wahabbis are fundatmentalists, but they are Sunni fundamentalists, and are not a part of the equation in Iraq. The strife which has arisen among Shiites in Iraq, and which has sometimes been expressed as an opposition to the U.S. occupation is the result of a violent power struggle within Shiism in Iraq--quite apart from the natural attitude of a people to resent a foreign occupier. While you may wish to continue to decry the Wahabbis, they are no part of a discussion of the occupation of Iraq.

From Barbara Tuchman, in The March of Folly:



I came across this quote while looking for more information about our current policy about North Korea. A commentator said that there is a serious conflict within the administration about how to deal with the situation. I think that conflict is endemic -- IS the administration -- and that it is visible in the handling of Iraq, its response to alleged terrorism, etc. etc. The administration may get sick and die due to another illness -- deficit, long term commitment in Iraq, unemployment... -- but its ongoing disease comes from the rivalries and disagreement within.

And, Bush needs to boost his standing in the polls. I am willing to bet "we" are at war in Iran by next February, and will pay for the mistake for decades.

Wail, ah guiss ah'll jes' saddle up agin, git them shotguns, git the boys together, and git on over thar, git rid of the rest of them damn ayrabs. Innyway ah guiss they're ayrabs they're nixt dor to them other ayrabs ain't they? Damn greasers they ain't nuthin' but a bunch a trubble.

Setanta wrote:

While you may wish to continue to decry the Wahabbis, they are no part of a discussion of the occupation of Iraq.

I grant you all of the above and I'm certain it's accurate down to the last semi-colon but what about those guys and gals pouring across the borders on all sides? Are you willing to bet a dog biscuit that none of those people received their hatred training from Madrasas in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. They aren't there to help the poor Iraqis----they are there to Kill Americans and anyone else that will further their agenda. I truly fail to perceive why you and others insist that any proper branch of Islam is relevant to Wahhabism. Is is a political ideology hiding behind Islam while they further their agenda.`This is my last comment for awhile----I had no intention of monopolizing this threat until Tartarin tried to put my railroad into a siding.

Well, interesting discourse, despite...... Thanks, boss, for that info. Very fascinating.

Just one last comment as I ride off into the sunset with the rest of the posse-----Tartarin this is for you----when you climb onto your broom do you check to see if you have a drivers licence or a pilots licence?