The US, UN & Iraq III

Don't you think further discussion could be both useful and informative before an arbitrary decision on the part of 2 participants.

0 Replies

perception wrote:

If you are a mainstream Muslim don't be afraid because we are making every attempt to be fair and objective.

Two words: "Residue,"and "Bovine." Mass roundups and interrogations of ALL males of a certain age of a certain faith from certain countries is neither fair, or objective (unless you are employed by FOX. Rolling Eyes

). Consider what this disconnect between the words of our leaders,and their actions says to the rest of the world.
As far as Wahabbism in Iraq goes, the efforts to build a Theocratic government ( like that of Iran) is being pursued by the Shi'ites. Whahhabism is an offshoot of Sunni Islam, NOT Shia. The two do not see eye to eye in the simplest of matters. If I "minimized the importance of Whabbism in Iraq," it is because until recently, it had not touched Iraq. We can thank the invasion for allowing it to do so. The Iranian Revolutionary Government, Islamic Jihad in Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon, and the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade are all Shia organizations, not Wahhabist Sunni organizations. I think that young Percy is leading us down the primrose path not due to malevolence on his part, but becasue his sources do not differetniate between the two major strains of Islam, or among the hundreds of minor strains (of which Wahabbism is but one) of fundamentaist Islam. They are grinders of Huntingtons (discredited) axe, not dispassionate observers of history.

0 Replies

I do not intend to be a dispassionate observer of history as an academic might be-----I want to identify them, capture them and put them on trial.

I believe it is irrelevant which major branch of Islam it has hi-jacked-----You agreed that Sunni is mostly mainstream Islam or did I misinterpret?

0 Replies

Well, I don't know, if the expert Ambassador Gold has written about these Islamic sects and their influence too, but certainly the Aliites, or Fatimites, the Asharians, Azaragites, Babakites, Babbis, Idrisites, Ismailians and Assassins, Jabrians, Kaissanites, Karmathians, Kharjites, followers of the Mahdi, Mu'tazilites, Qadrains, Safrians, Sifatians, Sufis, Zaidites et. al. could be of general interest as well.

0 Replies

"Fundamentalism, Wahhabism, and the sources of terror" This is a spin-off of the US, UN, IRAQ series in which Perception has raised Wahhabism -- Muslim fundamentalism -- as an important player. He and others posted a series of informative pieces about Wahhabism.

Perc: "Many people seem to agree that the war against terrorism now being waged in Iraq will determine the overall outcome of the struggle against suicidal terrorism."

HobitBob: "One reason fundamentalist movements are often bellicose is that they seek to deal with contemporary dilemmas by the use of archaic means."

Walter: "When speaking about 'Wahhabism', however, I think, Europe should be included as well, since many of 'terroristic' activities in former Russian republics are blamed by officials as inspired by 'Wahhabism'."

Certainly fundamentalism in all its forms has become one of the more serious sources of anger, frustration, and violence. Let's create a space here for the kind of discussion initiated by Perception, Hobit, and Walter -- and for discussions about troubling religious fundamentalism in all its forms.

For more information, see the US, UN, IRAQ thread's most recent pages.
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11190
(Wow, that seems like a very long address line...)

0 Replies

Walter

Putting up all that smoke is a military tactic but it is totally irrelevant. :wink:

0 Replies

And let the games begin - in both places.

I have a question. Given the dominance of faith in Iraqi life (or is that an incorrect assumption on my part?), what would happen if an Iraqi leader or politician came onto the scene and said that given our differences, we must adopt a model with a strict separate of church and state? What is the likelihood that such an individual would, or could, rise to the top? What if he or she actively campaigned on this issue? What might be the outcome?

0 Replies

Quote:

U.N. Finds Uranium at Iran Nuclear Plant

Tuesday August 26, 2003 8:29 PM
By GEORGE JAHN
Associated Press Writer

VIENNA, Austria (AP) - U.N. inspectors found traces of highly enriched, weapons-grade uranium at an Iranian nuclear facility, a report by the U.N. nuclear agency says. Iran said Tuesday the traces came with equipment purchased abroad decades ago.

The find heightened concerns that Tehran may be running a secret nuclear weapons program.

Agency inspectors found ``particles'' of highly enriched uranium that could be used in a weapons program at the facility at Natanz, said the report prepared for a meeting of the U.N. agency's board Sept. 8 in Vienna. Contents of the report were made known to The Associated Press by diplomats who requested anonymity.

The United States has accused Iran of developing a clandestine nuclear weapons program, violating the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty barring the spread of atomic weapons.

Iran has denied the allegations, insisting its programs are devoted only to generating electricity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3072964,00.html

The time is ripe, polls are down, The Carlyle Group has had enough time to replenish armaments and there have been major new Oil finds in Iran Question

0 Replies

Nice try Tartarain-----that could be classified as a ornery cheap arbitrary trick-----I was roosting here long before you were Laughing

0 Replies

perception wrote:

Walter

Putting up all that smoke is a military tactic but it is totally irrelevant. :wink:

Actually, it is very relavent. It demonstrates that the majority of non-Muslims know little about the various branches of the religion, and about the differences that lead to conflicts both within and without the faith.

0 Replies

Perception, i understand your concern about the Wahabbi influence in Saudia Arabia. But you are wrong to consider that it has any effect on Iraq. As others have pointed out to you here, the majority Islamic sects of Iraq is Shiite, and therefore have no relation to the Sunnis sects, of which the Wahabbi is one. Secondly, the supporters of Saddam were Sunni, and they need no fundamentalist fervor to oppose us. Even were they inclined to mix religion with their hatred, it is unlikely that Wahabbism would form a part--Saddam wanted a secular state, and did his level best to stamp out religious influences. He was most successful, for obvious reasons, among his Sunni supporters. Were they suddenly to get religion, it likely would have nothing to do with the Wahabbis. You've demonstrated for more than a year that the Wahabbis are a bee in your bonnet. In so far as Iraq is concerned, you need to forget about that.

0 Replies

sumac wrote:

And let the games begin - in both places.

I have a question. Given the dominance of faith in Iraqi life (or is that an incorrect assumption on my part?),

Religion probably plays a greater role in everyday life in Poughkeepsie than it does in Iraq. Iraq is (was) one of the most secular nations in the ME. Under its occupation by American forces, the rheroic of Islam is being used to foster a sense of Iraqi nationalism. I would think that similar rhetoric would have been used if the "roooskys" as many of my more conservative aquaintances refer to them, would have invaded the US. Look at the role religious rhetoric played on both sides of the border during the US Civil War.
The current popular image of all Muslims as superstitious beings who do not dare breathe without making sure it is in accordance with the will of god is horribly innacurate.

0 Replies

Hobitbob

I repost this just in case you missed it-------------

I do not intend to be a dispassionate observer of history as an academic might be-----I want to identify them, capture them and put them on trial.

I believe it is irrelevant which major branch of Islam it has hi-jacked-----You agreed that Sunni is mostly mainstream Islam or did I misinterpret?

Why do you insist upon downplaying fundamentalism and Wahhabism specifically and persist in laying down you own smoke-screen or do you intend to keep your head in the sand and "hope terrorism will just go away"?

0 Replies

hobitbob wrote:

Actually, it is very relavent. It demonstrates that the majority of non-Muslims know little about the various branches of the religion, and about the differences that lead to conflicts both within and without the faith.

I've learnt that at (high-)school, since "religion" is taught here as well as "philosophy".

0 Replies

HB's point is well taken, Walter--comparative religion is not taught at the secondary level here, because of the specter of the monster of state sponsored religion. When it is casually discussed between students in classrooms here, it is the differences between Protestant sects, usually. What Perception and others need to understand is that considering Wahabbis and Shiites as pretty much the same is like considering Catholics and snake-handling charismatics as pretty much the same. It is an absurdity, and nothing in our culture teaches the citizenry enough about foreign religious belief and practice for Americans to know that.

0 Replies

Percy, it is not an "either/or" situation. I don't see that Sunni has been "hijacked." I do think that over-emphasizing one aspect of terrorist motivation and ignoring others is probably a comfortable way out of considering larger factors for some people, and if this is the case for you, than enjoy. I certainly have no desire to argue with you.
I'm not laying down any "smokescreen." I also do not believe that terrorism wil ever go away. The "war on terror" is a feel-good title meant to re-assure the simple. It allows the US to do horrible things, like invade sovereign nations, and destroy them, while attempting to maintain an air of moral superiority. Obviously you have bought into the fabrication. Many others have not.

0 Replies

I always thought snake handling was a manifestation of the difficulties involved in getting a date in the deep south. :wink:

0 Replies

Setanta

I really do respect your sense of history and intelligence and therefore I respectfully say that you and Hobitbob are missing the point here- WAHHABISM AND ALL OTHER FORMS OF FUNDAMENTALISM ARE SEPERATE FROM ISLAM-------THEY ARE ONLY ONLY USING ISLAM TO FURTHER THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA BY JUSTIFYING THEIR MURDEROUS ACTS AS THE WILL OF ALLAH. The same way Wahhab used the supposed word of the prophet to justify expansion of his murderous sect by the sword. End of speech----I think I'll go do something important and have a BM.

0 Replies

Thanks for that info, Setanta.

0 Replies

Quote:

fundamentalism: often capitalized
a : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching
b : the beliefs of this movement
c : adherence to such beliefs

0 Replies

The US, UN & Iraq III

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know