The US, UN & Iraq III

The United States is not a democracy, but a republic. The Constitution prescribes a strong, central government capable of acting for the pubic good without recourse to plebisites, or the approval of groups outside the body of government. After the War for independence, the country was governed by the Articles of Confederation that deliberately weakened any centralized federal policies. Almost at once things went very wrong. States had their own currency, made their own foreign policies, and withheld their support for the central government unless they agreed with it. Even within the individual states, it was difficult to accomplish anything without the express approval of the mob. Taxes were almost impossible to collect, and anarchy was always in the wind. The country was on the point of collapse, when as a last ditch effort the Constitutional Convention was called. Most states thought that the Constitutional Convention would only try to patch up the worst failings of the Articles, but instead they scrapped the whole thing and started anew. The Constitutional Convention was a secret deliberation, and the attendees were forbidden to discuss their deliberations with the press. Whew, what a conspiracy that was, but if the deliberations were known the compromises necessary to forge the new document may never have been possible.

Perception,

General Trainor (USMC, Ret.), is an insightful man. I'll have to look into reading his book. There is an extensive literature in re. justification for war. Treaties and membership in international organizations, have since WWII greatly increased the difficulties in dealing with the subject. However, pacifist movements prior to WWI and WWII were probably just as strong as those we've recently encountered. FDR's Lend Lease was attacked using many of the same arguments we've been hearing here, but those programs were critical to winning the war. Many of the criticisms of this administration's actions have been made regarding earlier administrations. Take a look at how public sentiment was divided over U.S. actions in 1846, and in 1898. The country survived those "unjust wars", and it will survive the controversies over this one.

At the risk of sounding like I am patronizing a daft child what does the form of government have to do with justification?

PARODY: So in a brutal dictatorial regime, characterized as a government that suppressed opposition forcefully, it is morally right to torture your political opponents, this is what brutal dictatorial regime stands for.





Again, survival and justification are not related. Yes we will survive this and just about any possible war in our generation, but you still have to look for something to call justification. It's not automatic (e.g. success=justification or survival = justification or I think so = justification).

Craven,

I think we are talking at cross-purposes. My comments were directed to the notion that the Federal government is bound to only act in accordance with the passing expressions of the People at large. The sort of government we have, is of course, of no consequence when it comes to finding justification for a policy. Nor is it necessary, under our form of government to convince the body politic that those justifications (whatever they are) are sufficient to support the policy. The Executive, in our system, does have an obligation to present his justifications to the representatives of the People sitting in Congress and the Senate. If they are satisfied, they will approve and the Executive can move forward with his policy.

dafdaf, re your comment about how the military feel about the wars they must fight: this issue has been discussed in our media to an extent. The point has been made that our volunteer armed forces are stocked with young people who found the military a way out of economic depression, poverty, or a misspent youth. They did not join up with the central idea of hiding in bunkers returning fire from hostiles. For many of them, the Gulf War was fought when they were children.

They joined for an education or to learn a skill or to learn discipline and leadership. In the back of their minds, they knew that warfare was possible; and they had been trained to do that. But, for most of them, this war was not on their horizon when they joined up. With the possible exception of some gung-ho warrior types, this army, I am convinced, was a civilian army that knew it might have to fight.

Thing is, the stateside legality of the war was never in question. It's perfectly legal in the US to violate some international laws.

Since the matter at hand takes place in the international theater I find US centric laws less relevant than the international ones.

craven, justification is an interesting issue. It has nothing to do with survival. But it may have something to do with how well the nation of Iraq looks in five years.

Kara, I think that's a pretty good way to maintain a military. It mitigates against a "Warrior Class" that looks on conscripts as the raw material of aggression.

timber, I agree.

Craven wrote:

<Thing is, the stateside legality of the war was never in question. It's perfectly legal in the US to violate some international laws>

You just answered your own question---The President was only concerned with legal justification regarding the American people because they are the ones who will hold him accountable.

My statement did not carry this into the international arena.

Iraq is in the international arena

Very apt, Dyslexia ... Iraq indeed is in the International Arena. However, as gamepiece, not as contestant. Iraq is The Football, not a football player.

Kara wrote:

The point has been made that our volunteer armed forces are stocked with young people who found the military a way out of economic depression, poverty, or a misspent youth. They did not join up with the central idea of hiding in bunkers returning fire from hostiles. For many of them, the Gulf War was fought when they were children.

While some people might agree with your statement it is only because they too feel a need to belittle the efforts of these great young people. I think it is harsh and unfair to give that broadbrush treatment as to the motives of our young soldiers and airmen. It also places you in the position of being the omniscient psychoanalyst by crawling inside their heads----would you have wanted to be placed in a category of the anti-war fanatic who places their selfish interests ahead of the welfare of the country and our soldiers? Well I think you have just categorized them as a group of poor uneducated kids who didn't know what they were doing when they volunteered---how superior of you.

Kara, As one who enlisted into the US Air Force when in my early twenties, I can agree with you that the primary motivation to enlist was to move out of economic depression and poverty. I don't know about "misspent" youth, because I consider myself quite naive and innocent of crime and juvenile delinquency. I did not drink or smoke like my peers, and never stole from stores as I have witnessed my friend's ill advised delinquency. After I served my four year enlistment, I eventually earned my degree in accounting, and had a relatively successful career. When our oldest son graduated from college, I had him enlist in the military, because he needed the discipline. He eventually stayed in for over 12 years as a weapon's officer, and resigned three years ago. He earned his masters last December from the University of Texas in Austin. I doubt that our son can be considered as having escaped economic depression or poverty. c.i.

Just to add a bit ... Today's Volunteer Military is composed of folks who, regardless of socio-economic background, in general have achieved at least a highschool education and further have avoided material liason with the justice system. It decidedly is not a military weighted toward tmembership of the the poor and otherwise disadvantaged. If one becomes a plumber, one expects to work with plumbing. If one chooses military employment, one should be unsurprised to be required to discharge offensive or defensive military obligations. Its in the job description.

Iraq is indeed a game piece, a dominoe if you will and a show piece as well. we have apparently failed miserably at nation building in Afghanistan. Pakistan is on thin ice. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are none to stabile. The violence seems to be escalating in Palestine. But what the hey, we can always boycot french wine and german cars cause we got moxie and really big guns. We dont really care what the international community thinks about anything cause we are always right, even when we are wrong. We have indeed won the battle for Iraq, it remains to be seen if we win the war over terrorism. Short sighted pride is not an indicator of long term cohesion in world affairs. We are now promising the world a free and democratic Iraq. Do you think we will deliver?

dys, FYI, wine sales from France to the US has dropped in the last month. I wonder why? c.i.

points taken, c.i. and timber. But our military offers educational advantages that many young people could not manage on their own. This is not a negative statement about the forces. It says more about our society. Many of the people I know from the forties and fifties went to school on the G. I. Bill. This was a resource that educated whole groups of our population. Conversely, a young person now might join up to get an education that she or he could get no other way.

c.i., I added the comment about wild youth because I knew a few whose lives were straightened out in the Army.

I do not see, perception, how my comments could be construed as putting down anyone in the military.

Kara wrote:


<I do not see, perception, how my comments could be construed as putting down anyone in the military.>

Just that they were too stupid to realize the consequences of their decision to enter the military.

Don't fret dear lady---just another example of our divergent points of view and the canyon is getting wider by the minute.

This is for those of you who think the American flag is a meaningless symbol of a corrupt country.

In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California, with respect to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following recollection from Senator John McCain is very appropriate:.


"The Pledge of Allegiance - Senator John McCain

From a speech made by Capt. John S. McCain, US, (Ret) who represents Arizona in the U.S. Senate:

As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions
of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room.

This was,as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country and our military provide for people who want to work and want to succeed.

As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing.

Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt. Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance.

I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it.

That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours.

Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.

The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room.

As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the
excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian.

He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag.

He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better.

He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to Pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world.

You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Note to HofT...

There is possibly no human baby on earth as completely smoochable as that aquatic cousin whose snapshot you sent along. And you are a fairly special creature yourself, madam. I'll be away for a while, though it won't be permanent. In the interim, now and again, I'll bump into something that ought to find its way here, as in the following post.