The US, UN & Iraq III

Timber -- you've made a series of grand posts until Perception wandered in. When you go along with stuff, it sounds pretty foolish, not the admirable Timber of bygone pages!

Perhaps the fact that one can actually see healthy blood flowing once again in the corpus of the Left makes you guys nervous? But if you go on the way you have been, you're gonna make the Right look really silly... I thought we'd left all those straw men, all that immature either/or stuff, far behind. Oops, Freddy's back, I guess.

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My goodness...it's a goddamn scorcher of a summer mid-day afternoon and so you leave the door open for just a bit to try and get the air stirred up by more than the thousand fruitfly wings can manage...and in come two old friends!

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Kara, whether or not the statements may apply to any other State is not at issue; one cannot deny they apply to Iraq. Redirecting the argument in no way invalidates it.

Tartarin, I "Go Along" with damned little. I take serious exception to much of the policy and performance of The Current Administration. However, I consider myself a realist. I need not approve of something to acknowledge it. Denial and derrogation are inneffective strategies for coping with change. What counter proposals have you to The Current Administration's policies, in what way would these counter proposals be effected, what might be the anticipated benefits to come from these counter proposals, and over what time frame?

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1st counter proposal: take hat in hand, go to the UN, accept a new resolution on Iraq and get some help.

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Here's a lovely piece on the hearings which begin Monday in Britain...whose careers are at risk, why, and what evidence is now known on the various points...two months of (hopefully) very gruelling questions for all concerned...and wouldn't you just love to see the same in the US?

Quote:

Careers on the line as hearings get under way

The 'sexed up' dossier scandal threatens to damage Blair, the defence secretary and the BBC

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/kelly/story/0,13747,1016172,00.html

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from The Village Voice

Quote:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0332/lee.php

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Where ya been, Dyslexia? While not "Hat in hand", Bush the Younger is not averse to a responsible, expanded UN role, something which is "Old News":

Quote:

... U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who was at the White House last week, has said that a new resolution under discussion would broaden the current U.N. mandate in Iraq and internationalize the U.S. and British operation ...
... Bush said he had been in close contact with Annan to discuss various ways to involve other nations, even as attacks on U.S. soldiers continue.

"This extension of hostility is really a part of the war to liberate Iraq," Bush said. "We're patient. We're strong. We're resolute and we will see this matter through. And obviously, the more help we can get, the more we appreciate it."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/21/bush.berlusconi.ap/index.html

Tartarin, the only blood of The Left I see flowing is pouring out onto the floor of public opinion, and I'm not alone in that view:

Quote:

Lieberman lashes left-wing Democrats
Kucinich: Party must offer voters 'real choice' to Bush
Sunday, August 10, 2003 Posted: 6:56 PM EDT (2256 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Joe Lieberman attacked the left wing of his party Sunday, saying Democrats "don't deserve to run the country" if they move left and embrace "the failed solutions of the past."

"If we're for middle-class tax increases, if we send a message of weakness and ambivalence on defense, if we go back to big government spending, if we're against trade [and] for protectionism -- which never created a job -- we don't deserve to run the country," Lieberman, a presidential candidate, said on "Fox News Sunday."

"We're not going to be able to meet the challenges that America faces today."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/10/dems.candidates/

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blatham, by way of the VV wrote:

Quote:

I propose, on behalf of the Democratic nominee, that (s)he makes sure this kind of bullshit ceases immediately.

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Timberlandko: i do read even old news but this is todays news:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -

Quote:

The United States should seek a new U.N. resolution on Iraq to help secure greater international support in reconstruction and peacekeeping efforts, a key Senate Republican said on Sunday.
Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Richard Lugar of Indiana said a U.N. resolution would also provide "greater legitimacy" to commercial contracts in Iraq.

"I think we need to seek a resolution or more resolutions from the United Nations to give more legitimacy, more reason why other nations will come to the floor -- specifically India, perhaps Germany," he told reporters.

France, Russia and Germany, who all opposed the U.S.-led war that ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, have indicated they would send peacekeeping troops or help in other ways if the United Nations had a bigger role.

However, the Bush administration has said the current U.N. resolution provides enough authority for other countries to contribute.

The White House and the Pentagon have so far balked at the idea of seeking a new Security Council resolution from countries that opposed the US invasion of Iraq. - AFP

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timberlandko wrote:

Quote:
Lieberman lashes left-wing Democrats
Kucinich: Party must offer voters 'real choice' to Bush

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Joe Lieberman attacked the left wing of his party Sunday, saying Democrats "don't deserve to run the country" if they move left and embrace "the failed solutions of the past."

Tsk, tsk, Big Bird...

You left this out (though you left IN the reference to it in the subheadline):

Quote:

Offering a contrasting view, however, was Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich, one of the antiwar candidates on the party's left.

He said Democrats must offer a "real choice" to the Bush administration if they want to motivate voters.

Now, see this is what should be happening in the 12 months prior to the nomination: a healthy exchange of viewpoints.

The Republicans don't allow that sort of thing, though, do they?

And ol' Joe, with those comments, doesn't sound much like the front-runner he allegedly is, now does he?

Of course, he DID get an invite to come on FOX this morning, though...

Maybe he thinks that's a win.

I wonder how many FOX viewers might actually have been swayed to vote for him as a result.

One or two, ya think? :wink:

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I read Lugar's more recent comments, Dyslexia. As I said, though, the point is its old news. I would expect the concept to percolate up into prominence over the relative near term. The chief impediment at the moment is that The UN and The US are at odds over the nature, scope, and intent of any such Resolution. Compromise and accommodation are being pursued, and before too long, I imagine, a Least Mutually Objectionable proposal, acceptable if not wholly what was originally hoped for by either, will be put forward.

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Tartarin wrote:
Perhaps the fact that one can actually see healthy blood flowing once again in the corpus of the Left makes you guys nervous? But if you go on the way you have been, you're gonna make the Right look really silly... I thought we'd left all those straw men, all that immature either/or stuff, far behind. Oops, Freddy's back, I guess.

For shame ---- now look whose immaturity is showing.

Seems to me people would be pleased to view some debate instead of the constant back slapping among the "hate Bush" support group.

Tartarin: Due to your lack of introspective ability it has probably escaped you that when you perceive any chance of balance between the left and right on this thread you immediately resort to your childhood with flimsy putdowns of some imaginary assailant. Tell me --- do you hear voices ????

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perception your not really going to offer the opinion that you present balance are you? you are certainly as far right as I am far left. i dont pretend balance, neither should you.

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Debate? What debate? Statements, yes.

PDiddie - if you go to the Governors Association website, you see that taxes are already being raised all over the country. Sometimes the nomenclature gets fancy, but most states are in a real bind now, and the only resource is what comes from taxes. The governors are also predicting a worsening situation with the coming of winter, because of the growing jobless rate, and the expected increased homeless problem. The GA site is an interesting one, because it takes you from the federal into where things actually have to be put into play. There is, for instance, a beginning problem with a number of families of the troops overseas, concerning housing, feeding, etc. With so many wage earners now gone indefinitely, and pay increases being cut, this places a burden upon the states.

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Dys

Quite right but before I showed up it was all Left. Now I admit that I refuse to debate each little point, mainly because we conservatives are far outnumbered and I have observed George Ob1, Asherman, and Timber present strong arguments refuting most of the leftist gibberish on this thread only to be shouted down by the majority.

That said I will allow you all to go back to being a one sided support group for lefties but I reserve the right to come back and stir things up.

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Ahem.

Focus, folks.

FOCUS

.thanks

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One entry found for modulate.
Main Entry: mod·u·late
Pronunciation: 'mä-j&-"lAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -lat·ed; -lat·ing
Etymology: Latin modulatus, past participle of modulari to play, sing, from modulus small measure, rhythm, diminutive of modus measure -- more at METE
Date: 1615
transitive senses
1 : to tune to a key or pitch
2 : to adjust to or keep in proper measure or proportion : TEMPER
3 : to vary the amplitude, frequency, or phase of (a carrier wave or a light wave) for the transmission of intelligence (as by radio); also : to vary the velocity of electrons in an electron beam.

--------------------------------

One entry found for moderator.
Main Entry: mod·er·a·tor
Pronunciation: 'mä-d&-"rA-t&r
Function: noun
Date: circa 1560
1 : one who arbitrates : MEDIATOR
2 : one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: as a : the presiding officer of a Presbyterian governing body b : the nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting c : the chairman of a discussion group
3 : a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor
- mod·er·a·tor·ship /-"ship/ noun

---------------------------------------------

A fine line exist between the two ...... for what its worth.

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PDiddie, I was interested in your comments about the general population mving to the left. I have not seen that, and I have not seen any polls showing such. My feeling is that the Dems are in big trouble, especially in the south.

There is a piece on the subject of radical v. centrist party positions in today's NYTimes op-ed page. Top right. Can't recall who wrote it. He tried to fit a square peg in a round hole a few times, but the piece is worth reading.

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Timber, I think it was you who wrote, in part:

Quote:

From these contacts, I draw a very different, and far less negative, impression of the actuallity of things "In Country" than is provided by The Media. I could be wrong, but it seems to me The Media go out of their way to find support for their implied argument "See ... We Told You So!".

I have not found this to be true. Every day, I see articles -- most of them are anecdotal -- that show positive progress on one front or another. The "negative" pieces are anecdotal, as well, of course. For many reasons, we are unable to see or be shown the whole picture. That is true of any country, of course, but truer in Iraq where much is chaos. I occasionally see the We Told you So stories, but most of all, I detect a tone of concern and frustration that we have been unable to bring order to the country.

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The US, UN & Iraq III

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